Lyn: Well, here we are, fellow re-readers, finally at the end of Part One after four months! Seems like we’ve been doing this forever, but also strangely not nearly long enough to get as far through the book as we have. But of course, it’s not over! We’ve got four more parts and roughly NINE HUNDRED more pages to go!
Alice: And Interludes coming next week, for a change of pace.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. No Cosmere connections or references to spoilers from other books in this reread, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin Stormblessed; Shallan Davar
WHERE: City of Revolar; Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.5.2 (five days after Kaladin’s last appearance in Chapter 23); a few hours after the battle against Re-Shephir.
Kaladin arrives at the city of Revolar with his group of parshmen, to find the city conquered and occupied by thousands of parshmen. When a Fused approaches, he realizes that it’s time to go, and flies up into the sky to see an oncoming Highstorm. Looking back down, he sees a group of human captives unprepared for the coming storm. He lands and directs the parshmen guarding them to get them to safety. Unfortunately, the storm overtakes them, and Kaladin somehow uses windspren to create a windbreak to allow a few humans to get to safety. He then rides the Highstorm all the way back to Urithiru.
Meanwhile, Shallan sits in Sebarial’s section of Urithiru and reflects on the Midnight Mother… until, that is, Adolin arrives with the news that Jasnah has returned.
Threshold of the storm
Title: Demands of the Storm; Company
WHO ARE YOU TO MAKE DEMANDS OF THE STORM, SON OF HONOR?
The Stormfather was a face as wide as the sky, dominating like a sunrise.
It’s an interesting choice for the title. The Stormfather is rebuking Kaladin for making demands of the storm, but Kaladin (and everyone else) have little choice but to succumb to the demands of the storm, as they always must before this massive natural phenomenon. At the same time, it’s Kaladin’s need to protect people from those demands that leads to the formation of the whatever-it-is made of windspren. To quote Syl, “Wow!”
“Is there anything else I can get you?” Palona asked.
Shallan shook her head, so the Herdazian woman settled herself on a sofa nearby, holding another cup of tea. Shallan sipped, glad for the company. Adolin had wanted her to sleep, but the last thing she wanted was to be alone.
The direct quote is the obvious connection, as Shallan—quite reasonably, IMO!—does NOT want to be alone after what she’s just gone through. Palona seems the perfect company: helpful, undemanding, willing to listen. … And then there’s the unexpected and perhaps less welcome company who walks in at the end.
Heralds
Jezrien is in all four places for Kaladin’s chapter. Obviously the Herald of the Windrunners would be heading this chapter, as Kaladin is displaying some pretty awesome Windrunner abilities and ideals here. As for the next little one, Battar (of the Elsecallers) is in all four places, probably because of the reappearance of Jasnah.
A: I dunno, Lyn, maybe this is our hint that Palona is going to be an Elsecaller! (JK) But I’d really like to know if Battar was a giveaway to any of the readers, making them suspect Jasnah’s return before she walked in. Anyone?
Icon
Kaladin’s spears and cloak; Pattern
Epigraph
If they cannot make you less foolish, at least let them give you hope. For I, of all people, have changed.
—From Oathbringer, preface
L: Possibly relevant that the “let them give you hope” part is heading Kaladin’s chapter (if there’s one person in these books we can always depend on to bring hope to others, it’s Kal), and maybe the “I have changed” bit could be referencing Shallan and her thinking about how she’s finally feeling like an adult, but I’m really reaching for these.
Stories & Songs
“During my time as a slave, barely able to think, I still dreamed.”
L: This is really cool… and horribly sad.
A name from ancient lore, one of the Unmade, princes of the Voidbringers. People sang about Re-Shephir in poetry and epics, describing her as a dark, beautiful figure. Paintings depicted her as a black-clad woman with red eyes and a sultry gaze.
L: Just goes to show you that history and artwork aren’t infallible.
A: Speaking of inaccurate artwork… I’m going to dodge back to last week’s discussion for just a moment to comment on the similarity between the third large mural and the Ishar painting in the endpapers. It occured to me the other day that Shallan recognized at least the Nightwatcher/Cultivation mural as “pagan symbols” it’s probable that some imagery has been passed down for hundreds and thousands of years. Is it possible that over time, the symbols associated with the Sibling and those associated with Ishar became conflated? If Ishar was remembered in association with Bondsmiths, but the existence of the Sibling itself was mostly forgotten as they withdrew from interaction with the world, is it logical that perhaps the Sibling’s symbology morphed into Ishar’s? Just a thought.
There was a deeper mystery behind that, a wisp of something she’d glimpsed while intertwined with Re-Shephir. It made Shallan wonder if this spren wasn’t merely trying to understand humankind, but rather searching for something it itself had lost.
Had this creature—in distant, distant time before memory—once been human?
L: Yikes.
A: It’s almost certain that they were some kind of person, long ago, before they were Unmade. Whether they were human, singer, Aimian, or something else… I can’t venture to guess what they were, but they were unmade from something. It could almost make me pity them. Almost.
“She was captive,” Shallan whispered. “She eventually escaped, but that was centuries ago.”
L: Okay so… if we’re operating under the assumption that she was captured in a perfect gemstone, HOW did she escape? I’d love to hear the story behind that.
A: All I can guess is that it wasn’t quite perfect. But I do hope we get more of this story!
Bruised & Broken
“They’re Voidbringers.”
“No, they’re people. And they’re angry, with good reason. … I know that feeling. It burns in you, worms inside your brain until you forget everything but the injustice done to you. It’s how I felt about Elhokar. Sometimes a world of rational explanations can become meaningless in the face of that all-consuming desire to get what you deserve.”
L: It’s nice to see the self-reflection here on Kaladin’s part. He recognizes the flaw in himself—which is, of course, the first step towards overcoming it.
She was kind of an adult. She could deal with a little embarrassment. In fact, she was increasingly certain that between Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, she could deal with anything life could throw at her.
A: In the general badassery that was the fight with Re-Shephir, we had a chance to see Shallan as a Knight Radiant in power. For some reason, this chapter forcefully reminded me that she’s still only seventeen, and a deeply traumatized seventeen at that, having recently had to face things she’s blocked for years. It’s almost heartbreaking to read this, as she’s thinking how much she’s grown and how she can handle so much more. Even though she won, I think the terror she experienced broke her even more deeply, and that this event accelerated her downward spiral into the deeper identity issues she’ll experience later.
She didn’t tell them how near she’d come to breaking, and how terrified she was that she might someday meet that creature again.
IMO, this is both confirmation of what I just said, and also Foreshadowing. The question is, will she be enough stronger for the rematch that she can actually overcome (and maybe recapture) Re-Shephir, or will she break?
Places & Peoples
Buy the Book
Oathbringer
“Is this what you want, Sah? To conquer the kingdom? Destroy humankind?”
“Storms, I don’t know,” he said. “But I can’t be a slave again, Kal. I won’t let them take Vai and imprison her.”
L: Aside from the rather, ah… topical things we could note (::I will not discuss politics in a reread I will not discuss politics in a reread::), I’ll instead say that I feel for Sah so hard, here. This is such an awful position to be in. I don’t think anyone ever wants to really kill other people (if they do, they’re probably a bit unhinged), so being put in the position of having to do so to protect yourself and your children? Ugh.
A: On a much lighter note…
It was a strangely shaped stone chamber with a loft above—he sometimes put musicians there—and a shallow cavity in the floor, which he kept saying he was going to fill with water and fish.
So what would have been the purpose of this back when Urithiru was formed? Did Sebarial stumble on an idea that matched the original? I can’t quite believe that… but I also can’t figure out what its purpose would have been. Checkov’s hollow?
Tight Butts and Coconuts
He crashed to the ground, sending out a puff of glowing Stormlight that expanded from him in a ring.
L: By the laws of comic book fandom, subsection gif-A, I am legally required to post this.
Weighty Words
Syl spun around him as a ribbon of light, creating a spiral of glowing lines.
L: The beginning of his Shardplate?! I know this is the going theory, but I simply can’t imagine it being anything else. We get a lot of hints of this in this chapter…
A few windspren zipped past Kaladin, then began to dance playfully around him.
And…
Windspren accompanied him—he had two dozen now, a spinning and laughing group, each a ribbon of light.
And then, the big one:
A hundred windspren spun in as lines of light, twisting around his arm, wrapping it like ribbons. They surged with Light, then exploded outward in a blinding sheet, sweeping to Kaladin’s sides and parting the winds around him.
The storm raged against him, but he held the point in a formation of windspren that spread from him like wings, diverting the storm.
L: Okay so… aside from the awesomeness that is the possibility of proto-Shardplate, I’d really like to dig into this other ability Kal seems to have discovered. It’s like he created a huge shield of spren. Is this… extending the Plate away from his body? And if so, is this something that all of the Knights Radiant used to be able to do? Imagine the applications! Could they use them to pick things up that were at a distance? Use them to throw back something (or someone) far away? (I’m sort of imagining Force-pushing from Star Wars here.)
A: The thing is, Syl is completely flabbergasted by it. She has no idea what he did with the windspren—which makes me think it’s not something the former Radiants could do.
L: Unless it’s something else that she’s forgotten.
A: That could be, but most of the time she “remembers” once he’s done it. Hard to say. It must be related to Plate, of course.
L: Oh, absolutely.
A: I suspect it’s different than what’s been done before, though, because he’s not limited by expectations. In the past, I’ve bemoaned the fact that the new crop of Knights is having to figure everything out for themselves without benefit of training like the old Knights would have had. This is the first time we see a benefit from that lack of training: Kaladin desperately needs to do this, and he’s able to gather the windspren to do it because he doesn’t know he can’t. And so it is totally awesome: he’s able to use something that will probably become Plate later to protect more than just himself—he protects a whole group of people who would most likely die otherwise.
Of course, the ironic part is that he’s using windspren to divert the wind. That should probably be explored, but it’s just way too meta for me.
Oh. My. Storms. I just realized—Kaladin has seen this before! Back in The Way of Kings, when he was hung out in the highstorm as punishment for the side carry episode:
In those brief moments of light when he dared to look, he thought he saw Syl standing in front of him, her face to the wind, tiny hands forward. As if she were trying to hold back the storm and split the winds as a stone divided the waters of a swift stream.
That’s exactly what he did with the windspren here, except on a larger scale. He subconsciously replicated what he saw her trying to do way back then.
“The bond isn’t about what’s right and wrong, is it, Syl. It’s about what you see as right and wrong.”
“What we see,” she corrected. “And about oaths. You swore to protect Elhokar.”
“Fine. But it’s still about perception.”
L: This is BIG. So… when she says “we,” is she referring to herself and Kaladin, or herself and the other honorspren? If the former, is it possible that a Knight Radiant could do something that went against their oaths provided they could rationalize it to their spren and get them to agree that it was necessary, or that it was actually fulfilling the oaths as they saw it?
A: I’m reasonably confident that “we” means Syl and Kaladin. I have a firm theory that while Kaladin’s conscious mind and emotions were conflicted about Elhokar, his subconscious knew the assassination was wrong. IMO, his bond to Syl requires him to be true to what he knows is right, not what he can rationalize to himself. Kaladin thinks the broken bond was Syl enforcing her morality on him; I think it was the bond enforcing his own morality on him. When he nearly broke the bond, it was actually a matter of choosing his desires over his moral values; it’s restoration came when he reversed that priority.
Is it about perception? Perhaps—but if so, it’s about his own subconscious perception of his oaths and what they require of him.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
He probably shouldn’t have shown them any of these things; that didn’t stop him from feeling proud as he walked with them, entering the city.
L: Kal just can’t stop himself from leading people.
A: I love that in him, even though it’s going to cause him problems later. ::sniffle::
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Gloryspren burst up about Kaladin’s head.
Syl took on the form of a person just so she could glower at the little bobbing balls of light. “Mine,” she said, swatting one of them aside.
L: Ha! First of all, her possessiveness is adorable. Secondly, though, I wonder about this. If gloryspren are attracted to Bondsmiths the way windspren are to Windrunners, could Kal also be exhibiting some Bondsmith-traits, which would be why Syl is chasing these gloryspren away?
A: You know, I think you might be onto something there. On a first read, we don’t know about the gloryspren/Bondsmith connection, but in retrospect, you have to wonder. She’s never really paid any attention to other spren that show up around him, except the windspren she refers to as cousins. (Well, and the deathspren back in TWoK, but that’s a bit different!) Now all of a sudden she’s possessive about other spren around Kaladin? I agree—it’s because of their link to Bondsmiths.
“Besides, I’m less a force of nature and more one of the raw powers of creation transformed by collective human imagination into a personification of one of their ideals.”
L: WELL. That’s pretty much the best in-world description of exactly what a higher spren is that we’ve gotten so far.
A: It’s also hilarious. Just sayin’.
L: I rather like this little bit later in the chapter, as it relates to this:
He’s a storm, Kaladin. As people over millenia have imagined him.
L: It’s really cool how belief can shape these creatures. Sort of reminds me of a lot of stories about fae, and how belief (or the lack thereof) by humans affects their powers (or their very existence).
Syl cried out in his mind, a sound like pain and surprise mixed.
L: Hunh. Is she just hurt by Kaladin getting knocked into, or is there something more going on here?
A: It feels like a non sequitur otherwise, so I have to assume that it’s connected to seeing the flying Voidbringers. On a random guess, maybe that’s how her first bondmate was killed? That’s all I’ve got.
I AM THE MEMORY OF A GOD, THE FRAGMENT THAT REMAINS. THE SOUL OF THE STORM AND THE MIND OF ETERNITY.
L: Okay so… if the Stormfather is the fragment that remains of the Almighty… What about the other Siblings? Alice, you’re the Cosmere scholar, help me out with the Shard possibilities going on here. Is he a Shard? Was the Almighty a Shard?
A: Yup. The “Almighty” they refer to was, as far as we know, the Shard Honor. Who started calling him that, or why, we don’t yet know, but the Stormfather now holds much of Honor’s investiture. Taking the title of “Almighty” seems a bit presumptuous, doesn’t it, what with Cultivation sitting right there being just as much a Shard of Adonalsium as Honor! Anyway, Brandon said that the Stormfather’s relationship with Honor (before he was splintered) was pretty much the same as the Nightwatcher’s relationship with Cultivation. A lot of people assume that means the Sibling had a similar relationship with Odium, but we know that’s not true, because Brandon also specified that Odium’s equivalent relationship is the Unmade collectively. It’s quite possible that the reason the Sibling could go to sleep is that they aren’t tied so closely to a Shard. It’s also quite possible that Sibling had some kind of special relationship with Adonalsium himself, since this planet was specifically designed and created by Adonalsium. We don’t know, but I think that last is a cool theory, anyway.
Kaladin. You can’t save them all. … You’ll never be able to do enough to satisfy yourself, Kaladin.
L: Lots of theories that Kaladin’s next ideal is going to revolve around this concept… theories that I personally subscribe to.
A: Likewise.
Quality Quotations
“No matter what you are told, know this: I do not wish to be your enemy.”
L: I like the way he worded this. “I do not WISH to be your enemy.” This implies that if he needs to be, he will—but only if the choice is out of his control.
A: Later, he’s going to find that the choice is never out of his control… and by not choosing, his friends in the Wall Guard, as well as the King he was supposed to protect, all die at the hands of these very people—and these people die at the hands of his friends.
“Do better,” he said to her. “These people are your charge now. You’ve seized the city, taken what you want. If you wish to claim any kind of moral superiority, treat your captives better than they did you.”
L: Yeah! You go, Kaladin! You lead by example and keep being awesome!
I think what you’re doing is like asking fire to please stop being so hot.
A: Good luck with that!
“Just listen to the piece of nature incarnate, okay?”
A: Sounds like a very good plan.
Dalinar had been downright nice to her—instead of being his usual stern rock of a human being.
A: Just because it made me snicker.
At their head was Jasnah Kholin.
L: ::sings:: Cuz she’s BAAAAAACK! Back in the saddle agaaaiiiiin…
For the next re-read, we’ll be digging into all three of the first set of Interludes, as they’re all pretty short. So prepare yourself for some salvage, some in-world Jane Austen, and… and… ::sniffles:: some confirmation that a certain character really did die.
Alice is off to see the wizard …er… Montana again this week! The civilized part this time, though, so she won’t be so out of touch. Meanwhile, y’all go pre-order Skyward, okay? That gamma read has her pumped!
Lyndsey finally found the time to participate in the Skyward gamma read, and she’s got to agree with Alice—this is a great book, and you’re all going to love it. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
I just want to reiterate here my great disappointment that Brandon skipped over Jasnah’s reunion with everyone. Heck, I don’t think we ever hear about how Navani feels about her reappearance.
@1 Austin
During one of the flashbacks that Dalinar brings Jasnah and Navani into, I believe Dalinar brings up how emotional Navani and Jasnah can be considering how they acted during their reunion. It wasn’t seen on screen, but it was mentioned.
That would only be a slight giveaway to those readers who can recognize the heralds based on the icons as well as tie them to the appropriate class of Knight Radiant plus realize which one fits Jasnah. So, as someone who doesn’t fit any of those categories, I would say it wasn’t a giveaway.
Plus, I’d been waiting for Jasnah to reappear from the beginning due to the epilogue in WoR.
What makes you think the paintings of Re-Shephir are wrong?
Remember Syl? She can appear as a ribbon of light, a fluttering leaf … or a young woman of various sizes. Why couldn’t Re-Shephir have several forms? Especially consider that her creations do, in fact, assume various forms.
Kaladin, your Chronic Hero Syndrome is out of control.
Sebarial should make an indoor fishpond. Fisbponds make everything better. Except when fish escape from them into other waterways and become invasive species, but that won’t happen here.
I was also disappointed to miss most of Jasnah’s return.
Interludes, yaaaay! Interludes have always been my favorite parts of these books. Except the ones when Szeth slaughters people.
I have been slightly out of touch for the last week due to an intense amount of work, but I am relatively back.
Thoughts on this one…
Jasnah’s “anti-climatic” return marks the beginning of a string of emotional scenes which were either cut-off or happening behind closed doors. I agree with @1. So while @2 is right and the tearful reunion was later mentioned, I still feel the emotions would have flowed better, to the readers, had we actually read the scene. Therefore, if Brandon writes emotional trauma of chosen characters quite well, if he has shown his ability to dig into the mind of his characters, he has yet to improve in writing those emotions in an external manner. Because the story doesn’t just happen within Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar’s head. Other characters are also living strong emotional moments and capitalizing on them would, IMHO, make the story stronger. Not capitalizing on them, still IMHO, remove the involved characters the possibility to grow into better fleshed out more. Here, it is Navani who missing out on it.
We all anticipated Jasnah’s return, so actually reading it in a better setup than Adolin just walking in to announce her would have riveted readers onto their seats. Hence, I view Jasnah’s return as a missed opportunity to write an emotionally stronger scenes. There are other moments, within OB, where I felt the external emotional response the characters should have was skipped.
Another point would be Shallan thinking on how “grown-up” she is which, coincidentally marks how “not grown-up” she actually is. Grown-ups do not need to sit and think of how “grown-up” they are, they just are. The reflection she has remains one of a teenager and not a grown-up, odd how her thinking she now feels like an adult makes me think her childish instead.
Something else I believe I mentioned in the serialization: the constant need for Shallan to be “cared for”, “blanketed” and “fed hot tea”. I just finished reading the thunderclast scenes in my own personal re-read and it hit me how, once they stepped across the perpendicularity, prior to Renarin’s arrival, no one seemed to care anymore about Adolin’s opened gut. And here we have Shallan who needs to be taken care after an event which shook her, but did not practically killed her.
So Shallan and her need for “special care” kind of became a matter of annoyance especially when characters who actually get injured for real do not get it.
re: Kaladin’s windshield.
We are told in the books that Honor was alive at the time of the Recreance.
We know later in the book that the resident Bondsmith does something the Stormfather is surprised with, and indicating that it wasn’t something previous Bondsmiths had been able to do. The apparent reason it was possible was postulated to be because previously, Honor had been alive.
Having said this, Syl’s surprise at the windshield (I get a kick out of calling it that, for some reason) could be an extension of that. It is something previous Windrunners couldn’t do, because Honor had been alive back then.
I think what I am getting at is this: these non-standard abilities various new Knights Radiant seem to be able to use could be a result of their bonds being more “direct” to Honor’s Investiture now that the Shardholder and the Shard itself no longer represent the vast majority of that concentrated Investiture.
Lyn: A+ gif use there!
@6 Gepeto;
I gotta admit, I’m almost 31 and do think about sometimes how grown up or not I am XD I’m married and own my apartment, but I honestly don’t quite feel “grown up” anyway. So *shrug*. However I do agree it is a very teenage way of thinking, which I actually think is good, to remind us just how young Shallan actually is.
Alice and Lyndsey: I disagree with your opinion in the Chapter Title section. I do not think Jasnah’s company was less welcome. Shallan is adjusting to her role/place in the world. She had thought that she was stating to understand her place. Jasnah’s re-appearance will readjust Shallan’s place. First, it means that she resumes her wardship. This means she will have less freedom, even though she is one off the few KRs. Second, Jasnah has a commanding presence. Everyone will have to readjust when she is present. It is a function of Jasnah’s personality. However, deep down, I believe that Shallan is glad Jasnah is alive and not dead.
I think it would be a positive that the new KRs can do things their predecessors in their respective Orders never did. That would demonstrate one of two things. First, the spren are somehow able to evolve/change and thus give their hosts new Surebinding abilities. Or more likely, the old KRs were tied to their teachers. They would only do what they were taught and when they became teachers would teach what they knew to the next generation of KRs. The cycle continued unbroken until the Recreance. Now the new KRs have to figure out things for themselves. Thus, they can potentially come up with things that were never done before. Not because they are more powerful (Dalinar, notwithstanding due to what the Stormfather is now vs. what he was when he was last bonded) . But rather, the KR are able to use their powers in such a way that prior KRs never considered.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@6: While I love emotional reunions and scenes as much as anyone, we do have to keep in mind that this is already a 1300 page book. Sanderson doesn’t necessarily have time or space to write everything people want to see. Maintaining a cohesive, exciting plot for that long means some things necessarily get cut, particularly if it’s not making major contributions to the arcs of major characters and/or the overall plot. In this case, Navani is still very much a secondary character, and while Jasnah will have bigger roles later, the focus of this book isn’t on her. In that context, I think it makes sense to not show this scene. It simply doesn’t have enough to add to the story.
Also, this sentence: “So Shallan and her need for “special care” kind of became a matter of annoyance especially when characters who actually get injured for real do not get it.” It bothers me. Is Shallan still immature in very important ways? Yes. But Shallan is also immensely emotionally damaged and mentally fragile. She most likely actually does need “special care” in order to continue as a functioning human being. Also consider that Adolin is a soldier and a commander. His first thought, and the place he will direct other’s attention to, is the battle and the well-being of his comrades. Once they’re out of Shadesmar, he knows that he can get help and that his injury is not the most pressing concern at the moment. It is still a serious problem, but as a soldier he has a different mindset about that. I doubt you meant to imply that emotional and mental trauma isn’t “a real injury”, but that’s how it read to me. YMMV
On the idea presented in the article that Syl is jealous of other spren possibly trying to claim Kaladin, I’m going to ask the obvious question because this is Sanderson and he is an evil genius. Do we have official WOB confirmation that a single person CANNOT have two Nahel bonds? I imagine this is the case, but with Sanderson I’m suspicious of everything until it has been expressly confirmed/denied.
@10 Iskohn
I agree with all you said. Well put.
As to the spren question, it is possible for a person to bond two spren, but the spren may not like it so it is rare, and it would require the person to maintain two order’s oaths without them conflicting. We have also seen multiple spren be interested in the same people such as Truthwatcher and Edgedancer spren being interested in Ym. WoB below for your reference
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/62-firefight-seattle-public-library-signing/#e3082
I think everyone deserves to be comforted and cared for after enduring physical and/or emotional trauma. Some people unfortunately don’t receive this treatment, in real life or fiction, but I’m always glad when someone does. And I agree that it may be especially important for Shallan.
@8: Also nearly 31, also doubting my “grown-up” status on a regular basis.
@8: The purpose of my commentary on Shallan thinking of herself as an adult was to point out how her thinking is what coincidentally makes her sound younger.
I unfortunately do not have the opportunity to think of myself as anything else than a grown-up. It often isn’t a matter of age, more a matter of responsibilies. You can be 45 and still not quite be a grown-up: I have known very mature 18 years old and very immature 40 years old.
I will however say you have a demanding full-time job asking to perform technical miracles on a weekly basis, two children, a house and every questions which come with all of this, thinking you might still not be a grown-up is not even an option.
Hence my commentary: grown-ups do not have time to think whether or not they are grown-ups. This is luxury other people do have. And the fact Shallan is allowed to “rest” with her tea and her blankets also indicate she is still very much a teenager and not really a grown-up.
A grown-up would have been out there helping with the aftermath. A grown-up wouldn’t have had the luxury to do exactly what Shallan is doing.
@9: I think Jasnah is a difficult person to be around, hence the commentary.
@10: It is all a matter of choices being made. Yes, the book is long, but would I have traded some other scenes to the profit of more external emotional scenes? Gladly. Did every single one of those 1300 pages served a purpose which was absolutely necessary? Nope. Hence, it is a matter of choosing what goes into the book and what doesn’t. We are about to reach Part 2 which has *a lot* of not quite required *fluff*. Would I have preferred the emotional reunion in between two more central characters than some of the Bridge 4 scenes? Yes. I would.
For me, those missing scenes would have made the narrative more enthralling, better and more cohesive. Omitting them does not, still IMHO, make the narrative stronger, it makes it, IMHO, weaker.
Point is, just because a choice was made does not mean this was the “best” choice for all readers.
In the scene I brought up, Adolin was mortally wounded. While I would not want to diminish emotional trauma, I sure think being “mortally wounded” kind of trumps it. Not to forget being “mortally wounded” also leave emotional scars even if not obvious in the case at hand. Being a soldier has nothing to do with it: Dalinar comments on how old soldiers would cry for their mother as they die which implies being a soldier doesn’t make someone immune to the emotional shock caused by a mortal wound. Adolin is not a rock and, within this scene, he was treated as if he were one, except by Shallan. This was nice of her. I appreciate she did this.
Hence, seeing how everyone is so careful to care very much over Shallan because of her encounter with Re-Shephir while seeing the same people not care at all over Adolin’s mortal wound kinds of set an imbalance. None of it is Shallan’s fault, but it annoyed me Adolin could never get someone to actually care for him. So the tea scenes did get on my personal nerves, perhaps for no valid reason, but this is how I felt about them.
@10 agreed that this is likely why it got cut. Not sure it was the right choice though – but then I am not really bothered by long books – I mean I read and enjoy all of wheel of time soooo.
Also I disagree that the right and wrong implied by the oaths is not about perception – simply because right and wrong is ALWAYS about perception. Different cultures have different beliefs and no culture has a monopoly on the truth. Likely given Sanderson’s philosophy this isn’t how things are going to play out in the books however.
Can’t wait to get to the interludes interesting stuff.
@13 I am going to have to disagree with you though I often agree with you. Adolin being a soldier is certainly important – it means he is used to certain things and expected to deal with certain things. What you are trained for matters. I will also say as someone who has suffered emotional trauma – it can be even worse than “mortal” wounds and much harder to heal from. Also I wouldn’t trade any of the bridge four scenes. These are very important to Kalidin’s character and growth and likely have larger world building implications.
@13 Gepeto
Personally I do not think the slow to kill gut wound Adolin suffered should be compared to Shallan’s treatment after Re-Shephir. They are two different experiences happening to two different people, who each have their own histories and methods of coping. By trying to compare them, it appears that one is being minimalized versus another when they are two completely separate experiences.
As to the content of Oathbringer, some people disagree that part 2, 3 and 4 was fluff, but YMMV.
edit: to clarify, some people feel the scenes in part 2, 3 and 4 that you would like removed, are crucial to them and are needed to remain in the book.
About Kaladin’s wind-shield: I think Jasnah was doing something similar during the battle of Thalenah. That is, she was utilizing defensive abilities without summoning full plate. I think she probably can summon full plate (she’s sworn the fourth ideal) but given her role in that battle, it was more convenient for her to use a more flexible technique. Plus I can imagine she doesn’t want to reveal everything she can do!
Is Sebarial’s room a small theatre? The audience sits on the balcony, and the cavity is for the prompter.
It’s interesting that Syl chases away the gloryspren, but not the windspren. If windspren are associated with Kaladin’s order and gloryspren with a different one the windspren are actually more likely to be competition for her.
Adolin’s physical wound needs medical care, Shallan’s mental battle requires Palona’s emotional support. They are treated differently because they have different needs.
@17 Syl calls windspren her cousins, and I suspect she expects them to be attracted to Kaladin. It’s not a threat to her status (especially because they are lesser, non-sentient spren) the same way a Bondsmith spren showing interest would be. That’s my take, at least
@13 I’m a long time rereader that rarely comments, but I’d like to share my thoughts:
I am 36, married with 2 kids, one of whom is in high school. I have a satisfying career in technology, and have more responsibilities (financial and otherwise) than I’d bother to list. That being said, I am known for commenting about my capacity to “adult” and often mention wishing there was an “adultier adult” around to make the hard decisions. Alas, there never is and so I press on. But the idea that marveling at or even questioning one’s “grown-up” status is relegated to only certain kinds of adults is fallacy, IMO.
With regard to the reactions Shallan received after her encounter with Re-Shephir, perhaps consider that in the eyes of everyone involved, she was an untrained child who went into a dangerous situation and triumphed against all expectation. I believe Shallan bore far more than she was expected to in that battle, and that she survived the encounter at all was a cause for wonder in those who saw for themselves. Even more so for those that heard what this untrained girl child had done. I do believe that an injury sustained by a trained soldier in conflict is typically met with a different immediate reaction, oftentimes out of necessity and not callousness or disregard.
Brandon is tasked with telling the best story he knows how. And he’s been doing this long enough to know he cannot possibly please everyone. I may have wanted more Jasnah reunion scenes, but I ain’t giving up Bridge 4. I suppose that he could pack in more scenes between main characters by getting rid of the interludes but those often provide the most worldbuilding aspects of the story. Other authors would handle the material differently I’m quite sure. But I engage these works feeling like Brandon has told his story in the best possible way for him, and that I’m not forced to continue if I don’t agree with the choices he makes. But of course not everyone engages in these works in the same way.
Re: Kaladin Windshield
I think the idea of creative Surgebinding through ignorance has much merit. I think it’s a major theme of this series. Obviously the way the Heralds operated in the past, how the Knights Radient operated in the past did not work. They were stopgap measures, and if not for Taln’s strength of will would not have lasted even as long as it did. New Desolation, new methods, particularly new interpretations of Surges.
Hmmmmmm, random thought. Could Kaladin’s increased “ability” with his surges be the result of radiant savantism? He has been pushing himself with his surges and stormlight use quite a bit.
Do we really need the reunion scenes though? These aren’t characters in conflict with each other. We know generally speaking they will be happy to see each other. A reunion will generally speaking involve too much “This is what we’ve all been up to conversations.” We already know what everyone has been up to. (Or at least as much as Sanderson wants us to know) Personally I would rather they fill each other in off screen. I think seeing reunions happen off screen is preferable unless there is an immediate conflict resolution that takes place at the reunion.
@22
I don’t think that we need them. To me, it seems sort of obvious that that particular moment will be shown in Jasnah’s book / flashbacks. Her relationship to her mother, father and how she ended up with Ivory should all be a “smooth” transition. That being said, it’s not like we saw Jasnah and her mother ever actually interact in the books, so the reunion wouldn’t really have as much of an impact.
I agree with the overall premise that you have to cut some parts. We also never saw Szeth get integrated into the group in the book either, so that’s also something that we will be shown later. It’s annoying, but not unexpected.
My main takeaway from these chapters was to be pumped for more Jasnah. I’d been amped up to see her in action since the epilogue of Words and having her still missing through all of part 1 was a real tease.
I like seeing well-made reunions of people with loved ones they had thought were dead or otherwise gone forever. It can be most heartwarming and cathartic. I don’t know if it would have been the case here, but I don’t think reunion scenes should generally be restricted to people with unresolved conflicts.
I like Shallan, but would have gladly given up some of her page time in this book for more Bridge Four scenes. Same with Dalinar, though his present-day story is relatively streamlined. Not Kaladin, though. All of Kaladin’s scenes in this section are awesomesauce.
@13, and various others: As a 34yo with 4 kids, husband and house to look after plus some work on the side I rarely feel like the competent adult I’m supposed to be. And interestingly I was watching Colbert the other night and he referred to himself as not responsible/old enough for something at 54. It’s just a personal worldview that some people have. I often say that getting older is not a choice, but growing up is.
As for the chapters… I love Syl’s shooting of the gloryspren. She is NOT sharing Kal with anyone. And the windshield is interesting; I think I totally missed it my first time through I was reading so fast. It’s amazing what people can do when they don’t know that they can’t.
The oaths are viewed slightly different between people, as we see them saying slightly different words for each character throughout the books (especially The Lopen). That’s where Kal almost broke his bond because he knew he was doing wrong with the Elhokar mess, and his inability to know what is right makes him unable to act later.
As for Shallan, she’s a mess. And having a blanket and some tea doesn’t fix it but it’s not hurting more either. It’s nice to have one of her chapters where she’s not going even more to pieces.
I think it should be mentioned that at the point of Shallan curling up with a cup of tea, everything is over but the shouting. Adolin is filling Dalinar et al in on what happened, but there’s not a lot of tense things happening. When Shallan, Adolin, and Kaladin come out of Shadesmar, it’s the middle of a battle, and there’s no time for anyone to even stand still. Certainly an experienced soldier will be either trying to help, or trying to stay out of the way and not distract anyone from the battle.
@14: With the gut wound scene, I was disturbed how Kaladin, the moment he steps out of the perpendicularity has no more thoughts for Adolin. Instead, he looks to find Dalinar and demands orders. He leaves Adolin on the ground and stops caring for him *before* Renarin gets there to heal him. Sure, he’s a soldier and everything but Adolin’s inner monologue does go back to his near death experience quite a few times: this wasn’t completely trivial for him. Hence, the discrepancy did make me tick.
@15: And other people feel the scenes which did not make it within the book were crucial. For instance, we get to read Rock’s reunion with his family: it was a very good scene, very emotional, but Rock remains a less central character than Jasnah/Navani. Hence, not giving them their reunion on the basis they aren’t central enough when Rock gets his is the the kind of thought which can make a reader go down into endless loops.
An example of “fluff” would be the whole “Drehy being gay” conversation which serves no purpose but to show us how homosexuality is accepted in Alethkar. Not a bad point to make, the scene did have a purpose which I will broach in due time, but it remains something which wasn’t absolutely required. In other words, had we not read this scene but had we read the Jasnah/Navani reunion, would there be readers to ask about the Drehy scene? Probably not. Hence, my point.
@17: My point was Adolin’s wounds were not cared for. He was left, on the ground, to bleed up until Renarin ran to him. Then, he was ignored by everyone including Kaladin who supposedly had a “breaking down moment” over not being , able to save him, but ignores him once the moment is passed. Only Shallan asked how he was.
I was shocked when I re-read the scene. I had missed this on my first read.
@19: The Re-Shepir confrontation did not make me feel no one expected Shallan not to deal with the Unmade, quite the contrary. Adolin, at the very least, expected Shallan to deal with it.
@20: To each our own I guess. The Bridge 4 scenes served their purpose, but they also have their fall-outs. I guess I feel Jasnah’s return was an event worthy of a stronger coverage.
@23: Actually, we do see Szeth being integrated within the group. It is however rather quick. I just re-read this scene.
@25: I also love reading reunions with long thought dead characters. Those scenes can be incredibly powerful. I also believe there was ample superfluous material which could have been compressed to make room for 2-3 pages of Jasnah reuniting with her mother. I always find the argument “the book was long already” doesn’t hold much ground. I am referring to a scene which would have hold within a few pages, surely Dalinar visiting temples could have been made shorter (for instance). Thing is, there will always be readers to say a given scene is absolutely required, but I feel had some scenes not been there, they wouldn’t have been missed. Not like some readers are missing this scene.
@27: As I mentioned, I am bothered by the fact Kaladin breaks down over not being able to help Adolin, but forgets about him as he crosses the perpendicularity. He does not make sure he is actually cared for. Sure there was a battle and everything, but Kaladin refused to say the Fourth Ideal because of Adolin, the least he could do would be to actually care he were healed or not.
It makes Shallan getting tea kind of a double standard.
On being grown-up: I am 28, but I am married with a home, 2 kids, 2 cats, and a dog, so look “grown up” from the outside. My husband and I joke about how “grown-up” and old we feel (he is also 28) all the time, especially as parents. I wonder if this is a generational thing; people in our age group hit the traditional markers of adulthood at drastically different times in their lives (many of my friends are still in graduate school, some are never going to marry, etc.) so we think silly things like this. I personally loved this little Shallan thought, since it seemed so genuine. I also love being handed hot tea and concern, so that doesn’t bother me. I milked my birth recoveries for many back rubs and mugs of hot tea from my husband. :)
@@@@@ 25 – No way I would trade Shallan page time for Bridge 4! This week’s commentary shows just how differently we all feel about these books. Luckily we all love them, to0! I for one am happy to trust Brandon’s judgement on what is important to the narrative he is telling, but I will happily take all the Shallan he will give us.
I really like this Shallan chapter because it shows her using a support system. I feel like she falls more apart when she stops depending on other people and tries to do it all herself, via her various personas. I cringe on re-reading “between Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, she could deal with anything life could throw at her”.
(Edited to fix some spelling mistakes.)
@Gepeto
So I’ll quote the passages tomorrow but I just went over the section you are referring to and there are a few differences in my version that yours
First kaladin was broken up over failing dalinar, not adolin. He was concerned about him because his intenstines were nicked but his whole arc in shadesmar was to reach and save dalinar. Not adolin. Kaladin swearing the fourth oath was supposed to give him enough power to fight off the fused for them to then break through the oathgate to reach dalinar. So kaladin didn’t suddenly forget adolin.
Second no one suddenly I forgot adolin. When they emerged from the perpendicularity, the first thing kaladin did was block amarams blade from killing dalinar. Then shallan came out. Then adolin, to which dalinar said thank God adolin made it. Then he wondered about elhokar. Then renarin saw adolin and healed him. So they literally just got out of the pillar. They didn’t walk around or ignore adolin at all
I think there is more but I’ll get into it tomorrow once I’m on a computer
@Gepeto
I agree with some other commenters, like Scath. Kal literally stepped out of the Perpendicularity into a full-blown battle. In that scenario, waiting around helping Adolin would have most likely resulted in everyone dying, because no one was fighting the Fused and Amaram.
If they had walked out of Shadesmar into a comfortable sitting room, I imagine “Help Adolin!” would have been the first thing said.
I am all aboard on any theory shipping that Kaladin’s next ideal will center around him needing to learn to let go of self-blame. From the beginning of the series his thoughts have continued to dwell on his perceived failures and attributing blame onto himself, even when the events are beyond his control (e.g. Tien). He continues to focus on who has died under his protection rather than who he has saved. Perhaps some variant of, “I do not have the power to save everyone. I have to save the ones I can.” This echoes his words later to Elhokar in their final conversation regarding saving Elhokar’s son and giving up on his wife. As always, Kaladin logically knows what the next ideal is, but his heart just is not there yet. He could not admit that he was powerless to save Adolin and by association Tien. Kaladin is not yet ready to forgive himself or accept his limitations. Quite the hero complex.
@Gepeto: Note that I say the following making many assumptions and I do not presume to know what you have been through. That said, your comments and reactions to these rereads have given me the impression that you powerfully relate to Adolin due to your similarities (whether you are aware or not). I get the sense that you may have had a challenging life thus far and have had to take on a lot of responsibility without much or inconsistent support. Adolin had an absentee father and, as far as we know, was never really cared for deeply by others, especially after his mother’s death. He has had to be a grown up from a young age, a hybrid father-brother for Renarin, and his own caretaker. Despite never being babied or wrapped in blankets, Adolin has evolved into a well-balanced individual who is competent where he needs to be. There is little evidence that he has been “broken” despite the challenges he has faced. If anything, one of his two glaring flaws reflects this as he struggles to listen to others as he has always needed to be self-focused in order to protect himself (his other flaw being his impetuousness which I suspect also relates to his being self-disciplined and neglected).
I am sensing that you feel similarly on all of these points. I assume that this leaves you sensitized toward and feeling attacked whenever Adolin is disregarded or unsupported (which is open to subjective interpretation as Scath sagely noted). On the other hand, seeing others “breaking” and being supported triggers spite and annoyance as you have often displayed for Shallan (while others deeply empathize with Shallan’s struggles and yearn to reach into these pages and give her even more support).
I am not trying to attack your own personal reaction to these characters. I guess what I am trying to say is that we all interpret and react differently to the characters in SA. If my assumptions are accurate, I could understand why you respond in Adolin’s defense while also being annoyed with Shallan. That is, assuming that your personal experiences mirror Adolin and are polar opposite to Shallan. Even if they are entirely off the mark, you are welcome to whatever reaction you have. I just hope that you can also be open to the possibility that your reactions may not reflect Sanderson’s intentions. We all project our own subjective interpretations onto the events in these books and only the author knows what is objectively going on for these fictional characters created within his mind. In this instance, I believe the community here is trying to get across the message that your reactions likely do not fit with Sanderson’s intentions for reasons stated above.
P.S. it would have been easy and also appropriate to toss Navani or Jasnah an Interlude to put their reunion on paper. I agree that this is something we could have benefited from seeing to get a greater sense of the dynamics between Jasnah and her mother while also giving most readers something they could feel connected to. He put Jasnah on the cover he could have at least put her more prominently in the pages. Her character has been vastly underutilized and mystified likely because Sanderson is saving ammunition for the book where she takes on primary narrative duties. In my opinion that is an oversight and a missed opportunity. I doubt many would have complained about a four to eight page interlude that got us much closer to a central character who we have been distant from.
#25, @AeronaGreenjoy: “I like Shallan, but would have gladly given up some of her page time in this book for more Bridge Four scenes. Same with Dalinar, though his present-day story is relatively streamlined. Not Kaladin, though. All of Kaladin’s scenes in this section are awesomesauce.”
Tastes differ. I would have happily traded 50% of Kaladin’s scenes for nothing. They felt drawn-out and repetitive to me, just lengthening the story while adding nothing. The book would be better (again, for me) if they were just removed, and nothing about the plot or characters would change. And of course we both disagree with Gepeto.
My point being that no choice Sanderson made would please every reader (and also that the Stormlight Archive is one really long story in 10 parts, and judging by one book is unfair).
On another note, remember all my “the book is a ketek” talk? Well, note here that Sylphrena’s batting away Gloryspren from a triumphant Kaladin is balanced by Odium batting away Gloryspren from a not-yet-triumphant Dalinar at the end.
I would have liked more skybreaker chapters, theyI were my favorite.
In response to the grown up thing, I will leave what I have told my daughters, both 16:
You have to become mature, you have take reponsibility, but you NEVER have to grow up.
@33Carl,
I’m with you here. Got tired of Kaladin since WoR. His arc repeats itself in each book. It seems like I read the same story over and over again. Dalinar and Shallan are much more interesting for me, especially Dalinar.
Ok now that I am back on a computer I can answer properly
@25 AeronaGreenjoy
True, seeing come together can be cathartic but I think the point John was making was he didn’t feel it would add to moving the narrative forward vs other portions that were needed for the narrative. If the book was not already 1300 pages, it could have been included easily, but given the size it comes to the point of what to cut. This bleeds into Gepeto’s post. What to cut? Some people loved the bridge 4 scenes, some did not. Some loved Shallan’s scenes, some did not. I could pretty much do this for every single scene in the entire book. I personally would love more scenes where the radiant powers were used rather than the little tastes we got, especially for division and tension. But at the end of the day the arbiter that decides what is important and needed vs what is not is Brandon.
@27 Wetlandernw
I agree on all points, and will elaborate further later in my post.
@28 Gepeto
So as I said in my prior post, it seems we have two different copies of the same scenes because this is not how things happened in my version.
page 1130
Kaladin thought, finally, of Dalinar. Could Kaladin do it? Could he really say these Words? Could he mean them? The Fused swept close, Adolin bled. “I…” You know what you need to do “I…..can’t” Kaladin finally whispered tears streaming down his cheeks “I can’t lose him, but …..oh Almighty…. I can’t save him
So as we see, he is thinking of Dalinar. Adolin’s intestines were nicked which as per Kaladin risks sepsis. Sepsis kills in the grand scheme of things fast. As per one example of a model who had it, she took four days before she passed with it untreated. So although ultimately lethal, it is not a wound that if it does not meet with emergency care, the person will die in seconds. Depending on the location and severity, it can progress quickly, but as Kaladin said, Adolin will not bleed out.
Page 1139
He raised a familiar Shardblade. Dalina’s Shardblade, Oathbringer. Passed from tyrant to tyrant to tyrant. A portion of light split from Dalina’s column. Amaram swung Oathbringer with a shout, but the light met the Shardblade with an explosion of sparks, throwing Amaram backward – as if the strength of the SHardplate were no more than that of a child. The light resolved into a man with shoulder-length wavy hair, a blue uniform and a silvery spear in his hand. A second glowing form split off into Shallan Dava, brilliant red hair streaming behind her, a long thin Shardblade with a slight curve forming in her hands. And then, blessedly, Adolin appeared.
So Dalinar didn’t forget Adolin. He was thanking whatever deity he believes in that Adolin was there. It is only after that, do we get the scene where he thinks of Elhokar. Dalinar then talks to the stormfather briefly about what he did. While doing so, Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Adolin and Renarin all gather around Dalinar. Renarin goes to heal Adolin, and then Dalinar notices the wound and is relieved that Renarin is there to heal it.
Page 1141
Kaladin Stormblessed stepped up beside Dalinar before the rubble of the wall, and Shallan Davar stood on the other side. Jasnah emerged from the city and surveyed the scene with a critical air, while Renarin popped out behind her, then cried out and ran for Adolin. He grabbed his older brother in an embrace, then gasped. Adolin was wounded? Good lad, Dalinar thought as Renarin immediately set to healing his brother.
So looks like Adolin was able to walk under his own power, and the wound seemed minor enough in appearance that it went un-noticed till Renarin grabbed Adolin into a hug, and as the book said, he then immediately healed him. So all I see in my version is the three of them emerging from the portal to a hostile landscape. The combatants (Kaladin and Shallan) took point, deflected the attack, and then set up the perimeter. The wounded followed after and then was triaged by the medic. Once that was done, then the others gather and Dalinar begins to give orders. So again, I do not see anyone forgetting Adolin, or casting him aside. I believe a more valid comparison would have been taking how everyone acted after the battle of Thayla vs how Shallan is after Re-Shephir and even then I would caution such a comparison as again we are talking about two very different people with different experiences and histories. We all have our own cross to bear. Just because some can bear “more” than others does not diminish the weight nor belittle the individual involved.
I think where the problem comes in, is everyone has a different idea on what is crucial to the narrative. I am sure there are plenty of people in the LGBTQ community that would feel the scenes about Drehy being gay are very important. Some individuals in that community didn’t like how it was handled. And some didn’t care. So you may not think it is necessary, but there are people out there who would most definitely not see it as fluff.
Again, I think we have different versions of the book, because what I read most definitely did not say Adolin expected her to deal with the Unmade. He was concerned about her and worried. To his credit he realized that Re-Shephir was beyond his capabilities so he deferred to Shallan and Renarin but that does not change that Shallan and Renarin are young people being thrown into situations far over their heads. The narrative in a book can be a young boy is the chosen one meant to save the world, and still remember that the protagonist is a young boy with all the inherent fears and uncertainties. In fact that is what makes such characters more compelling. So to me, just because Shallan is a Radiant would not change Paloma’s mothering instincts in seeing a teenage girl who just had to confront an entity that was known for wiping out Radiant’s in the past, taken care of. So I feel trying to compare the two is only being harmful to both characters, rather than helping.
@33 Carl
This is the first of me hearing of your “the book is a ketek”. If I had missed it in prior threads I apologize. It is an interesting way of viewing the books. I would love to hear more.
@Gepeto,
You overstate how bad Adolin was treated. Gut wound – not a fast killer. He wasn’t forgotten. After they crossed perpendicularity Renarin healed him immediately . Kaladin, Shallan knew they have a healer in the team.
As for special treatment for Shallan and others, it’s true they aren’t physically injured, but many main characters of SA have experienced horrific things. They’re terribly traumatized and mentally unstable as a result. Dalinar is living with serious Post traumatic disorder (PTSD). Shallan, in my opinion, has something familiar. Yes, Adolin was injured, but he handled it quite well. He’s healthier and more stable than other characters.
I’ve frequently heard “grow up” in my life. Like I usually tell people, I’ve grown older, not up :)
@30: No need to quote the passage, I find your interpretation… Interesting. It actually differs from the most common interpretation I have read onto the fandom. As a rule of thumb, it is generally agreed upon Kaladin worried he would fail Adolin as saying the Fourth Oath meant he would have leave him behind and save the one he can (here Shallan).
There were also questions as to how saying the Fourth Oath would have changed anything to their current predicament… They couldn’t open the oathgate, they didn’t have enough food to go back, so even if Kaladin were to burst in power and fight the Fused, then what? There are no scenarios where Kaladin could do anything for Adolin.
I, of course, also jungle with the idea he broke down over failing Dalinar. I am not saying you are wrong nor right, but I will say if Kaladin ultimately breaks down because he believes he has failed Dalinar based on a vision while Adolin is dying in front of him, then I am seriously disturbed.
Kaladin ignored Adolin when he steps out of the perpendicularity. He might have thrown in a blow, but his next reaction is still to ignore Adolin. It isn’t to ask for help either. Had it been someone from Bridge 4, he would have been screaming for help.
Dalinar was *mentally* pleased to see his son was back, but he then proceeds to ignore him. The whole time he is giving out his order, his son is sitting on the ground in bloody clothes. No one but Shallan takes the time to check on him and make sure he is all right.
So yes, apart from Shallan and Renarin, everyone walked around, they did ignore Adolin and the fact he was gravely wounded. I was particularly disturbed “Kaladin” of all people would not bother with Adolin just as I was disturbed at Dalinar not taking “30 second” to check on his son or at least tell him he was pleased to see him back. He ignored him, not in his thoughts, but in his actions, he did ignore his own son.
Adolin later comments how his father forgot about him.
Hence, within the context, having Shallan receiving so much care while a wounded character gets nothing did, well, it annoyed me. Not Shallan, I was not annoyed with her, this isn’t her fault, just with the whole situation.
@31: I imagine had the wounded been someone from Bridge 4, then Kaladin would have said “Help”. He also doesn’t bother while Dalinar gives his orders nor does he take a few seconds to make sure he is all right before leaving. Also, when they see the perpendicularity, he and Shallan stand up, leaving Adolin on the ground.
I would also point out we see Kaladin care for his men even during battle, especially in WoK. And the battle was not dire enough Dalinar did not have the time to give out orders, so they had the time to check on Adolin.
@32: I agree with you on the Fourth Ideal. I too thought it was something along the lines of: “Save the one you can.”.
For the rest, yeah. Something along those lines. You are pretty close from reality. I did talk of this, some, within the mental illnesses thread.
Bottom line is, it bothers me when Adolin is being discarded, when what he goes through is being ignored on the pretense he is “strong enough to push through it” and “it is worst for others, so they should have all of the focus and him none because, well, he can deal with it.”. The whole idea some people deserve/need the care more than others is really hitting on some very personal buttons. Now, I don’t mean to infer anyone on this thread has said this, specifically, I am talking at how the narrative speaks to me in a more personal way.
I am also aware Brandon Sanderson is not seeing it the same way as I do and this hurts me in more ways than I could tell within this limited format. My life redux: “you do not matter, even in a fantasy book, you cannot matter because you fit an archetype and no one will bother to try to understand the archetype, worst no one thinks it is interesting to do so. Even the author”. Again, not Brandon’s intentions, my own very personal musings, I am aware of this, but if some readers relate to SA because of the depiction of Kaladin’s depression (a common commentary among fans), I relate to it because the depiction of how Adolin is being “ignored” on the basis he is “strong” and “capable” hits some very sensitive cords. It unfortunately yield a situation where instead of praising what is written, I end up wondering about what wasn’t.
So yes, it hurts. SA hurts. And nor for the reasons it hurts other readers. It hurts because it reinforce the message I have been hammered into part of my life: “others have it worst, suck it up, no one wants to hear about you. No one thinks you deserve a bit of care and love and attention: just because you’ve done well for yourself without it does not mean you never needed it.”. And a character such as Adolin represents the bulk of it.
Hence, I am trying to not take someone like Adolin for granted and it angers me when the book characters do it. Just because someone is always strong, just because someone isn’t having an identity crisis, it does not mean nothing is happening to them nor does it mean those things are “less important”.
This will unfortunately always taint how I view the story, why Shallan drinking tea gets on my personal nerves and no one else.
@38 comments illustrates exactly my point: because Adolin has handled himself well, he does not deserve/need some attention on the day he gets injured. And, of course, everyone else’s trauma is, of course, more important because it narratively reads as worst.
I will forever feel sorry for Adolin even if he probably wouldn’t want me to.
@38: Shallan handled the aftermath of fighting with Re-Sephir well: it was everyone else who insisted she rested and she goes drinking tea in a blanket.
@40 Gepeto
Page 1145
“For now, he’d been given a second chance to protect Dalinar Kholin”
The painting Kaladin saw he felt was of Dalinar. Every moment in Shadesmar he urged them to get to Dalinar in time. Every quote in Shadesmar was Kaladin worried about failing Dalinar. Guess if my reading is in the minority, then I am reading something completely different than everyone else. As to what the fourth oath had to do with anything, Kaladin was convinced Shallan could figure out a way to get through the oathgate. That was the whole point of engaging the fused to begin with. To distract them long enough for her to find a way through. If he “leveled up” then he would have enough power to defeat them, and give them a chance to get through to protect Dalinar from the figure wreathed in red. They didn’t have the resources on the Shadesmar side to do anything. Kaladin couldn’t do anything (no antibiotics which would be the treatment after sewing up a nicked intestine).. However if they could get through to the Thayla side, someone else could. And as we see with Renarin, did.
I am confused why you say might yet say I do not need to quote the passage. The passages show that with the bringing together of the realms, they could see into the physical. Kaladin could see Amaram swinging the sword at Dalinar. If Kaladin had not done so, Dalinar would be dead, full stop. Adolin was walking on his own power. Kaladin said he wouldn’t bleed out. The last time intestines or organs were cut, was in fact a bridgeman who’s wound was described as so bad Kaladin couldn’t think of anything to do. The bridge man then began to buck and writhe with a fever (all signs of severe sepsis), and then died. Adolin is not demonstrating those characteristics.
So now that Dalinar felt joy at seeing Adolin in his mind vs outloud, that is negated? They are surrounded by an enemy, I seriously do not understand how it could be seen as realistic for everyone to drop everything in a war zone to ask if the guy who had just been completely healed is ok? At the end of the battle of Thayla is one thing, just like with Shallan after Re-Shephir. I believe if we were to compare them as you offer, then it would be the equivalency of being upset at Adolin during Re-Shephir for not stopping in the middle of fighting the midnight essences, to check on the bridgemen who were wounded and being healed by Renarin. Why isn’t anyone thinking of those wounded bridgemen? They are being completely ignored while being healed by Renarin.
As to being ignored after. Kaladin goes up to Dalinar saying “Sir?”. Jasnah, then says something to Dalinar. Then Szeth, then Shallan. The only person Dalinar calls out to without them going to him first is Renarin to help focus the boy. Adolin doesn’t say a thing to Dalinar. Does not go up to his father after being healed. I don’t like these comparisons because it forces the responses to seem like they are attacking Adolin when all I am doing is stating what is written in the book. I have no problems with Adolin at all, and I feel like if I continue it will be taken as me criticizing him instead of just relating what happened in a chapter that is alllllllllll the way at the end of the book.
So that is patently untrue. His bridgemen got killed, or maimed by the assassin in white, but he did not go to them till after the threat of the assassin had left.
Ok tell me something. After Renarin healed the wound till there was not even an ache left, what else were everyone supposed to say and do?
Page 1142
“Whatever we do” Shallan said “we should it quickly. Before those soldiers….”
That does not sound like a ton of time to me. Dalinar then begins to bark orders quickly to everyone to get them organized and moving.
Could you do me a favor and quote specifically the scenes word for word that you feel this way? Because I am pouring over the book, quoting scene by scene and I just do not see it at all. Maybe if you could show the specific lines that make you think this way, it could go a long way to understanding.
Yikes. For me at least, when something hurts me so much, I would not seek to continue to be hurt by it. But to each their own.
I do not think any of us said Adolin does not deserve any attention. I think we however are all saying the two situations are not comparable.
edit: one more point of clarification. I cannot speak for everyone, but it is not my intention to diminish how you feel about wanting more Adolin. I do not think anyone is saying that. You are free to want the whole book to be about him if you wish (not saying you do, I am using hyperbole). I just think I myself and maybe others are trying to explain why myself, they and or others might appreciate those scenes kept in and why.
I really hope Brandon does the same kind of pre-release strategy for book 4 as I really enjoyed it – plus, it came at a perfect time for me given other stuff going on in my life (nothing bad, but it was just something I was really looking forward to each week). Thankfully it wasn’t going on now as my life has been so busy I never would have had time to catch up as things have ramped up considerably!
Jasnah is one of my favorite characters so I always would have welcomed more time with her :) But maybe in a way not seeing an emotional reunion helps make the impact of seeing her make what is an “emotional” choice regarding Renarin more important, especially since so far most of what we have seen of her was very cold/logical.
Regarding Adolin, in some ways I can relate as there is another fandom that in some ways, I felt personally hurt by based on how they treated a character for various subjective/personal/historic reasons. I know it doesn’t make sense, and I know a lot of people like how it turned out and I can even see objectively why certain decisions were made and why they make for some good storytelling, but it does certainly lessen my enjoyment of that fandom.
Kaladin’s chapters in this section feature everything I read the Stormlight Archive series for* — Rosharan flora and fauna, the industries and communities shaped by this weird ecology, snarky banter, emotional catharsis, Kaladin the Relatably Depressive, and the gloriously ever-unfolding revelations about the Parsh, as viewed by an outsider but described from within. It’s definitely a matter of taste.
*Aside from Lift.
People seem to forget that Jasnah is not that emotional. I rather liked the (even though we knew it was coming) shock/cliffhanger of “At their head was Jasnah Kholin.” As far as the age thing, people think things like that at different points in their lives. I also hope I never become fully adult, I still like playing (baseball, adventures, etc.) with my grandkids.
Scath, please make room for me on the little island you are on where you interpreted the text in SA as Kaladin being worried all the time of not being able to save Dalinar. This was why he did not want to follow Azure’s decision to sail towards the Cultivation perpendicular. I am in complete agreement with your interpretation
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@41: On the matter of the real reason behind Kaladin breaking down, I did not mean to say your interpretation was wrong. I only meant to say it differs from the ones I have read elsewhere. It does not make you wrong nor right, it just means the theories I have personally read do not agree with you own. If it makes you feel better, I tend to agree with you. I think the arguments you brought forward made sense and it always felt wrong, to me, for Kaladin to break down “over Adolin” only not to care about him afterwards. If Adolin being injured was such a traumatic moment for Kaladin, then I would have expected a stronger reaction from him once they cross to “safety”.
A counter argument would be how Kaladin thinks of the people who “died” near him which relates to Adolin dying near him.
I am however not convinced by your explanation of how the Fourth Oath would have changed their dire circumstances. They can’t open the Oathgate. Yes, this was the initial plan, but it failed. It wasn’t a matter of having enough stormlight, it was a matter of the Oathgate keepers not being able to let them pass. Hence, Fourth Oath or not, they weren’t travelling through this Oathgate. They weren’t reaching Dalinar in time. Saying or not the Fourth Oath had no incidence on this fact and Shallan made it clear they couldn’t pass through the Oathgate. The only effect the Fourth Oath would have had would have been to give Kaladin a fighting chance. Then what? They can’t go back, they can’t use the Oathgate. So why the dilemma over the Fourth Oath? Why not say it? With or without it, the only change was, at least, if he said it, then he’d have perhaps the opportunity not to die right now. Then, he would have still needed to find a ways to the Horneater Peaks despite having no food.
It is why I initially thought the Fourth Oath had something to do with “leaving Adolin behind to die”.
They have no way of knowing if Renarin is near or not on the other side. They have no way of knowing if help will be readily available hence the fact it wasn’t one of their first reaction made me tick. In light of this chapter, everyone’s first reaction was to make sure Shallan rested and got cared for. Hence, my reaction to this week’s chapter is tied to a later chapter.
I am confused why you say might yet say I do not need to quote the passage.
Oh I said this because getting quotes takes a lot of time and I had just re-read the scene. I did not feel I needed to be recalled the events, so I thought to save you the trouble.
So now that Dalinar felt joy at seeing Adolin in his mind vs outloud, that is negated?
If you only think of calling your sick mother to inquire about her health, is it the same as actually calling her? No, it isn’t because thoughts without actions is just not the same. So while Dalinar did think of Adolin, was internally pleased his son was back and safe, he did not voice those thoughts neither through words nor gestures. There is no way to know he is even thinking them unless you are within Dalinar’s head.
Try to imagine reading the same scene, but without Dalinar’s viewpoints. What would you think?
They are surrounded by an enemy, I seriously do not understand how it could be seen as realistic for everyone to drop everything in a war zone to ask if the guy who had just been completely healed is ok?
The enemy was far enough Adolin had to make his way over the rumble to find foes to fight. So they weren’t exactly in the middle of fighting soldiers. They also had the time to discuss orders.
OK, so since you want quotes to understand my thought process, here they are:
This is what happens immediately after the perpendicularity appears. Kaladin and Shallan stands up, leaving Adolin on the ground, struggling to sit up, holding his own guts.
How did they cross the perpendicularity? Did they walk? Your interpretation is Adolin walked, on his own, through it. I find it would have been unrealistic for him to be able to walk given his injuries. If he did manage to walk, then shame on both Kaladin/Shallan for not giving him a shoulder to help him. I however do not think he walked.
So he is back. Then we have a short paragraph with Lift, then we are back with Dalinar. His first moments are to think and grief for Elhokar who, he guessed, did not make it.
So, there are no immediate dangers at this specific moment. Both Kaladin and Shallan are seeing more fit to “step up” besides Dalinar, while Renarin is nowhere to be seen. Renarin popping from behind implies neither Kaladin nor Shallan could know he was “around” and would “soon” heal Adolin. Where is Adolin? On the ground, still bleeding. And Kaladin is not seeing fit to mention Adolin is injured nor to request for help. At this point in time, Dalinar has the excuse of not having noticed his son was injured.
Apart from being glad Renarin is healing Adolin, Dalinar has no more thoughts about his eldest son nor does he actually talked to him. He had time to wait for Lift, Szeth, Taln and Ash to come forward, then to give orders. The whole sequence lasts for two pages, hence there was ample time for Dalinar to acknowledge Adolin is actually there. Adolin later says his father neglected to give him a duty: it would be fairer to say his father neglected to acknowledge his existence.
Why do I say Adolin was on the ground and not walking nor standing? Because of this:
She knelt which implies Adolin was indeed, on the ground and very much not standing on his own. Later,
So again, another proof Adolin was most definitely not standing. I don’t know how he crossed the perpendicularity but he spends the whole sequence on the ground. He does not get up because he is still probing his stomach and he is probably still processing the shock from thinking he was going to die.
What were they supposed to do? Well Kaladin was supposed to actually care about Adolin being injured prior to seeing Renarin arrive. If from his vantage point Dalinar could hardly see Adolin’s wound, then he couldn’t see the healing. A quick: “Are you all right” would have been enough. It wouldn’t have killed anyone to just ask.
So yeah, this is a far-away scene, but Shallan being fed tea gets on my nerves because later within the same book an injured character gets nothing more than a side-glance by people who were supposed to care.
Not all SA conversations nor thoughts hurt. Just the ones where I start thinking about Adolin never getting his own inner arc and when I start feeling like was he goes through is being diminished because of his overall attitude. This chapter reminded me of this because of how Shallan is being cared for so nicely.
@40 Gepeto,
That’s not what I meant. You stated how mortally injured Adolin didn’t get enough care/attention. I disagree, he GOT it. I didn’t say Adolin doesn’t deserve care, I said he deserves it and he got it. His wound was immediately healed and Shallan checked him after battle was over. I’m convinced others did it as well. Book doesn’t show us everything. As you stated earlier, Jasnah/Navani reunion was skipped.
I’m also convinced other characters need care and attention too. Like this scene with Shallan. Like other scenes within the book. Yes, I think some other characters are much more troubled than Adolin. Just look at Shallan or Dalinar in Oathbringer…Their psyche is soooo messed up.
#37, @Scáth:
I posted the “OB is a ketek” theory to various Tor reread threads. For instance:
Here’s one I had not posted before: Venli hides Timbre from a Fused … and then Hoid hides Pattern 2 from several Fused. Repeated but amplified, although not symmetrical around the middle of the book.
In general, symmetry is a big deal in the Stormlight Archive. Holy names in Vorinism, ketek poetry, and there’s a weird tit-for-tat thing going on–whenever something happens, something opposite happens. For instance, when a Herald defects from Honor to Odium (Nale), an Unmade defects from Odium to Honor (Sja-Anat).Moash is the Anti-Kaladin and Taravangian is the Anti-Dalinar. It’s all very binary, and as also mentioned in other reread threads, very Taoist, with yin/yang.
#40, @Gepeto:
Just as a matter of intellectual curiosity, is “jungle with” a colloquialism in some language? I’ve never encountered that expression in English or Spanish.
Honestly, reading your comments here (for me) is like reading an alternate world version of this universe—you’re disliking stuff that is not in the book itself, as I have it and as it was quoted in this thread.
You write movingly about how you react this way because you have in your own life felt ignored because, as the strong one, your needs were always less important than those of people with “worse” problems. I do understand that, but … Adolin actually is very tough, and he’s an Alethi male. Being impervious to pain and suffering is a huge part of his self-image, and he’d be very offended if someone tried to sit him down and make him drink tea and rest in the middle of a battle. You’re almost denying Adolin agency and wanting him to react like you, not like himself. Shallan for one does go out of her way to support Adolin later in this book, when he is insecure and challenging his father’s will probably for the first time in his life.
Kind of a change of topic, but I thought it was wise of Shallan to realize that the other Unmade would “just be normal to us. The Way things have already been.” Perhaps I am just dense, but the fact that the Thrill was an Unmade wasn’t clear to me until Taravangian’s perspective chapter in Words of Radiance.
It makes me wonder whether the Heart of the Revel was active anywhere else recently before taking up residence in Kholinar. Does anyone know this? We know the Thrill was in Alethkar, then moved to Jah Keved, and we know that Moelach was near Kharbranth, then moved to the Horneater Peaks. Did we have any hints that Ashertmarn was active anywhere else during the series?
Back to Lynn and Alice talking about the perspective of the oaths. What a Radiant might be/do and still remain a Radiant expands considerably with this view. It explains Nale remaining a Radiant for one.
I am reminded of the axiom about villains not getting up in the morning believing what they do is evil but believing their’s is the correct choice. I am not saying adding perspective is wrong, I believe it’s necessary. It does make everything more difficult .
Perhaps Kaladin just has to learn to believe in his choices in order to progress. Though there is still the problem of having to choose which track the trolley will take. There is no easy happy answer.
After reading the excerpts about Adolin’s gut wound I agree he wasn’t ignored. However, when I first read that section I felt he was ignored and it seemed wrong to me. It “felt” like he was forgotten as I read it.
@47: My point was Dalinar ignored Adolin. He had no words for his son. Nothing. Kaladin also ignored Adolin’s wounds prior to knowing Renarin was nearby. Shallan too. So while the wound was ultimately cared for, there is no denying at least two people ignored it before they knew it would soon be healed.
Rock got a better treatment than Adolin when he got injured. He was not ignored. His wounds were given proper concern even after they were healed. Adolin most definitely wasn’t. Had Renarin not popped behind Jasnah, how long would it have taken for someone to do something about Adolin? Read the scene with injured Rock: this was night and day. Bridge 4 immediately cared for Rock, there was an urgency to their actions. With Adolin, nothing.
For the rest, I was trying a different approach and it failed.
@48: “Jungle with” would means trying to find your way, investigating many alternative and so on. I was not aware this wasn’t a terminology which did not work in English. My mistake.
I have recently decided to open-up about my personal life because I felt if others understood where I come from, they would better understand my commentaries and they would be less prone to write stuff such as: “Adolin is a soldier, he is immune to pain and needs nobody to ever care even for two seconds about his well-being” nor to think I am an odd ball to think perhaps someone should give it to him. I also mostly answered @32 who asked about those things. Perhaps even, I naively believed if others came to know me better, they wouldn’t be so antagonist towards me. My bad. I see it only makes me appear worst. This will not happen again. From now on, I will stick to chapters related comments only, I will leave my personal interrogations and reactions out of it just as I will find somewhere else to discuss them. I thought they have served to create a lot of discussion, but since they always end up in controversy, I will step out of those.
I was not denying Adolin agency nor did I say he should be given tea, the tea is just an example of care Shallan gets, not one which specifically applies to Adolin. I believed I have said a few words from his own father and actual worry from Kaladin once he steps out of the perpendicularity, prior to Renarin getting there, would have been enough. Currently, there is no other way to put it but to say he was ignored by all except Renarin and, later, Shalla though Shallan’s first reaction was also to stand with Dalinar and not to see to Adolin.
Shallan, on the other hand, is never ignored. I just re-read Rock being wounded chapter. Night and day with Adolin. Rock, he got real care, not Adolin.
@50: I re-read this scene about 10 times and 10 times I felt it was ignored. Each time I re-read it, it just jumps to my head how Kaladin just ignores the fact Adolin is wounded *before* Renarin gets here to heal him. Dalinar’s lack of attention is also baffling and difficult to understand: this is his son, not some random soldier. 2-3 words would have done wonder but it seems if Dalinar doesn’t have orders to give to Adolin, then he doesn’t talk to him. No amount of “Dalinar had more pressing issues to deal with then his wounded son, Renarin healed him so there was nothing more to say” will convince me. This was his son. He should have cared a tad bit more, IMHO.
The fact other readers are arguing he was not ignored doesn’t change the sequence of events: both Kaladin and Shallan go to stand with Dalinar while Adolin is bleeding on the ground. No one says a thing and the first person to go see Adolin is Renarin whom no one could see arriving as he was behind Jasnah. At the time where they choose to ignore the fact Adolin has been badly wounded neither Kaladin nor Shallan knew Renarin was close by. Dalinar might not have noticed his son was injured, but he most certainly ignored him afterwards.
I am glad at least one person read it the same way even if you now feel differently about the scene.
@@@@@ Gepeto
I’d like to point out that just because someone doesn’t agree with your analysis of a scene, that does not convey a personal attack. I haven’t seen any indication that you were attacked in this particular discussion. I’m sorry that you believe it to be so.
There have been times when I have done like you have, bringing my personal experiences to bear as I provide reasoning why I interpret certain scenes as I do. The Amaram vs. Dalinar discussion immediately comes to mind. Now, although I disagreed, often violently with your character analysis, I never conflated your views as a personal attack upon myself.
Brandon is such an effective writer; he makes it easy to fall in love with his characters. The downside is that any criticism of that loved character feels very personal. And I’m sure it’s quite frustrating when you feel the author isn’t giving the character as much due as you feel they deserve. I’m saying this because I can understand your frustration regarding Adolin even if I do not feel the same way. I for one both respect and are entertained by your commentary and your unique take on the narrative. I’m sure others feel the same or you would never get so much feedback from your posts. I just caution you to try and take these conversations as they are, spirited good-natured debate and not an attack on your closely-held views. I say this as one who doesn’t really have an opinion of the scene in question. I’d have to get to that point in my reread of OB to give an opinion of Adolin and his treatment upon leaving the Perpendiculary.
BTW: I think you meant to say Juggle with instead of Jungle with.
I have been saying for awhile that we need to do an Elantris reread. And if nothing else the effect the Oathbringer reread has had on Gepeto has convinced me of the need for it even more.
@Gepeto I have mentioned that Brandon has thought that Raoden might not have worked in another narrative but here is something more positive that he has used to describe him that you may want to hear. “He was the only one of my characters that deserved to be a king from the start.” So whenever you think Brandon Sanderson doesn’t like this kind of character just remember what he said about Raoden. Somewhat who met adversity and hardship and faced it with unwavering optimism.
So I was going to reply to Gepeto’s comments on the scenes in the book, but there are a few comments Gepeto made that concern me greatly and I feel need to be discussed. I have highlighted them in blue below
The whole idea some people deserve/need the care more than others is really hitting on some very personal buttons.
I am also aware Brandon Sanderson is not seeing it the same way as I do and this hurts me in more ways than I could tell within this limited format. My life redux: “you do not matter, even in a fantasy book, you cannot matter because you fit an archetype and no one will bother to try to understand the archetype, worst no one thinks it is interesting to do so. Even the author”.
So yes, it hurts. SA hurts. And nor for the reasons it hurts other readers. It hurts because it reinforce the message I have been hammered into part of my life: “others have it worst, suck it up, no one wants to hear about you. No one thinks you deserve a bit of care and love and attention: just because you’ve done well for yourself without it does not mean you never needed it.”.
Perhaps even, I naively believed if others came to know me better, they wouldn’t be so antagonist towards me. My bad. I see it only makes me appear worst.
So as I said, this concerns me greatly. Gepeto, you have said reading SA and these threads greatly pains you on a very personal level. Unfortunately you cannot control how I feel, or EvilMonkey, or Carl, or BenW, or Brandon Sanderson or well anyone except for yourself. When people suffer from depression, or anxiety or what have you part of what causes it or exacerbates it is that feeling of being out of control of your life. Unfortunately things external to yourself are outside your control. A big step in progression regarding depression, anxiety or other mental illnesses is accepting you cannot control what is outside you, but you can affect change on what is inside you and how you handle these external stimuli. For those with a religious leanings, Saint Francis put it wonderfully “Lord, grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” Now these changes can vary from biological with medication, and or therapy but the reason I bring all this up, is because the way you write SA is affecting you is very harmful for your personal well being. This goes back to the other thread on mental health. There is nothing wrong having depression, or anxiety and so on. Unfortunately there is still a rather large stigma against seeking professional help. I hope that thread and what I write now will help to dispel that stigma
You state how people identify with Kaladin for his depression, or Shallan for her identity crisis. So too as you say you identify with Adolin for feeling ignored. Whether that is true for others or not is immaterial. It is true for you. However, other people agreeing with it, or Brandon writing Adolin the way you think is best will not change one fundamental thing. The source of your upset and pain. Your childhood with your sibling and parents. That is what you say Adolin continually reminds you of, and what causes you so much intense pain that you have trouble even relating it here. No one should be forced to continually feel such pain, but at the end of the day, you are inflicting that pain on yourself by continually re-reading these passages and forcing yourself to relive that hurt from your younger days. I think you owe it to yourself, your family and your friends to take a step back from SA, and reach out to a therapist to work through the pain and upset of your past that is still very very present to this day. Then through work with a therapist, and confronting your past, I feel you will be able to be present with SA and enjoy it or dislike it however you wish to, but without that deep seated and persistent pain.
Now I also caution when seeking out a therapist, do not let your first experience dissuade you. Very often the first, second, and even third person we reach out to does not “click”. This is unfortunately natural and very likely will happen. But I encourage you to persist because once you find a therapist who understands and truly gets where you are coming from, a lot of progress will flow. I think everyone deserves to be happy in their own mind, and in their own skin as much as they are capable of. Depression, anxiety and etc, does not mean there is anything wrong with that person, and is not a switch that can just be flipped on and off. But it is something that people deserve help with to better their own life experiences and grow.
So in summation, you do not deserve to be in such pain. You do deserve to be happy, and I say with concern and support, to please seek the help that will allow you to accept your past and move beyond your pain. I will now post a separate comment to reply to other posts because although I know double posting is frowned upon, I did not want my post to Gepeto to be lost in the rest of my book discussion. Thank you.
@40 Gepeto
I will not reply to your posts regarding Adolin being ignored because I do not want you to relive and have to fight with that pain during your discussion with me. I hope you will take my above post to heart and with the genuine intentions that are meant behind it.
@42 Lisamarie
I am of two sides regarding the pre-release strategy. On one hand I loved being able to read the book in anticipation leading to the release of the full novel as I got to experience and wonder at all the new tidbits. On the other hand once the book was released, I found myself breezing through those early chapters to get to the new stuff, and did not really absorb it on that first official read. It was not till I re-read the whole book on the second go around that I truly appreciated it in its entirety. But then again, I have already read the first two 3 to 4 times now, and will soon be on my 3rd re-read of Oathbringer, so re-reads have never truly bothered me as you can see lol.
I whole heartily agree. Jasnah is my favorite as well, and I do think keeping things external from her mind for so much of the book did amplify the ultimate moment of connections between her and Renarin. The back five stormlight can’t come soon enough.
@45 AndrewHB
Thank you. I will make sure your spot has a prime view of the water, a pleasant breeze, with lovely shade from the trees lol
@48 Carl
Then I apologize that I missed them. I never thought to look at it that way before. I do know Oathbringer has 5 parts, does Way of Kings and Words of Radiance do as well? That would add even further to the sense of symmetry. Hmmm, I am currently re-reading Elantris, then Emperor’s Soul and perhaps two books by new authors I am curious about, but I was intended to do a Stormlight re-read after all of that. I look forward to keeping a closer eye on such things upon my re-read. Thank you!
@49 Evelina
I do not know if there is any evidence that the Heart of the Revel was anywhere else prior to Kholinar, but I do feel we can narrow it down a bit. If I recall correctly, we first see the scene of the female ardent experiencing the decadence of the palace in Words of Radiance, so I feel the Heart of the Revel had to be present at Kholinar at least that long. As Gavilar was beginning to bond the stormfather, I do not believe (I am hazarding a guess), that the Heart of the Revel was present while Gavilar was alive. Now whether or not it had been locked away in one of his spheres, and got out after his death, or had been elsewhere and moved in, that could be an interesting question.
@52 EvilMonkey
Well said and in complete agreement.
@53 BenW
Ironically enough as I said earlier, I am currently re-reading Elantris and am enjoying it immensely.
I also second what Scath says EVERYONE’S PAIN MATTERS. And I say this as someone who isn’t good at noticing when others are in pain unless they come out and tell me, but at the same time is willing to be there for anyone once I realize they are in pain.I’ve said it before Gepeto I will say it again, sorry for not noticing you are in pain earlier. I could kick myself for that. I also think he has a point that if the Stomlight Archive and Oathbringer is hurting you so much you may want to take some time away from it. That’s why I brought up Elantris. I could be wrong but I thought that one may resonate with you on a more personal level. Also Raoden was always my favorite character there, and if it makes you feel better while I may not hate Dalinar the way you do I honestly do NOT like him any more either.
Is it ok if I give my thoughts on the epigraphs? I have a bit of a different interpretation on the first one.
BenW @57. Yes.
I would hope that if anybody had a different interpretation of something SA related, he or she would post it. In my opinion, there should never be a need to ask. I promise to read it and think about what you say. I may not agree and may not comment upon it. But as a frequent poster to this re-read on Tor, I always like to read people’s interpretations of things SA related.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
Aka the musespren
(Sent from my smartphone)
@58 AndrewHB
I agree
@No one in particular
The more I think about Kaladin and his ability to create a windshield being possibly savantism, the more I find my self incredibly curious about how savantism would manifest between orders overall. We do know that the stony, smokey, or viney appearances of the ardents who used soulcasters is the result of savantism regarding those specific fabrials, but I do wonder what could be possible for the radiants themselves. What could a windrunner savant get out of gravitation compared to a skybreaker savant? I am speaking of these theoretically without connection to their resonances.
I think that “If they cannot make you less foolish, at least let them give you hope.” Might also refer to not just Kaladin but more importantly BOTH Kaladin AND the parshmen that he was talking to. I mean the Parshmen are basically going down the same war torn path that Dalinar was on. They are doing it out of justifiable anger, but it’s not going to necessarily make things better for them. At the same time Kaladin does tell them to better then the ones who came before them and as we see throughout the book if you EVER want to get a parshman to stop abusing someone, telling them that they are acting the way that a human would is a sure way to make it work. So on hand Kaladin wasn’t able to get the Parshmen to act less foolish, I.E., stop the war, but on the other hand his actions here DID provide hope for their future the fact that they act better is ONE of many things that provides hope for a possible resolution with the Parshmen. And who knows where that might lead? A possible future where groups of parshmen and humans allied to Honor and Culitivation fight against the humans and parshmen tied to Odium? I hope so.
Kind of a random thought but I wonder if it’s possible to be broken WITHOUT realizing or thinking you are broken. Maybe that’s the reason that the patron herald of the Stonewards lasted so long. He basically broke a long time ago but took forever to realize it.
The reason I bring is this up is because of all the talk about Adolin and Maya. It’s been speculated before that Shalash, patron of the Lightweavers might end up becoming a Dustbringer. And when you think about their opposite positions on the Knight Radiant board it makes sense, she’s changed so much she’s become her opposite. Well guess what position is opposite the Edgedancers, aka the type of Knight Radiant Maya belonged to, the Stonewards. Maybe similar to how Shalash will become a whole new type of Radiant/Kinght (in theory at least), THAT’S how Maya will be revived as a whole new type of spren. I could be wrong of course but it seems to fit. Adolin was born under the symbol of the patron herald of the Stonewards. Also IF he is broken but doesn’t realize it (and such a thing is possible, etc,) the reason why he doesn’t attract his own spren could be because of the reason mentioned with Maya.
BenW
I think it is possible to be broken and not have ptsd.
Andolin could have broken when young and has totally recoverd, that would mean his spirit web has cracked but he is now emotionally stable.
@61 BenW and 62 telema
Regarding being broken and bonding, I have been finding some interesting quotes that I think expands on it. So we know from this WoB, that you don’t necesarily have to be broken to have a bond, but you could be “open”.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418
So the question becomes what does it mean to be “open”? The below will contain Mistborn Secret History Spoilers. I will attempt to white it out, but formatting tends to get wonky when I try so if it does not work, read at your own risk.
In part 6 chapter 3 Kelsier is talking to Midge. The reason Kelsier chose Midge is because and I quote
“It wasn’t that they were broken, as he had once guessed. They were merely…..open. This man, Midge, seemed perfect. He responded to Kelsier’s words, but he wasn’t so unhinged that the others ignored him”
This is after Kelsier realized that Ruin and he could communicate to individuals without spikes that had some form of mental illness. Kelsier chose Midge because of this “openness” which allowed him to communicate with him. This is then brought up again in Oathbringer when Odium has his spren take possession of Sadeas’s men. Quote below
The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls.
“Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash” Odium said “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment“
So I think all of this is to say the right “frame of mind” depending on the shard involved is a way to be “open” to investiture. Mental illness and strong emotions seem to be examples of this. I will caution however at least in regards to radiancy that in my opinion, just because someone may be “open” does not mean it will necessarily result in a bond. Radiant spren are sapient entities in the cognitive realm. The bonding allows them to maintain that sapience into the physical realm. So just because someone may or may not be open, does not mean the spren may chose to bond with that person. Or sometimes multiple spren may chose to want to bond with that person. Each spren has a personality, and its own culture and society that has also been affected by the recreance so each one will react differently. Cryptic spren sent one as an experiment and are perfectly fine with the idea Pattern may die. They will just send another for another experiment. And they clearly did as Elhokar after being observed by them, began to bond one.
Elsecaller spren and Windrunner spren held a prohibition to bonding at all. Ivory and Syl are rebels to this prohibition and bonded anyway. So at the time of their bonding, it does not matter how many people are open to the bond and exemplify elsecaller and windrunner ideals, the spren simply will not bond with them. Only after Syl’s bond, have windrunner spren began bonding others. We have yet to see any other Elsecallers and may not see any others for who knows how long as they hold to this prohibition. Truthwatchers we do not know. They seem to be more open to bonding as we see they attempted Ym, Renarin, and Stump. Willshapers seem to have a prohibition given how Ico reacted to his daughter Timbre’s bond to Venli so we may see only few or none at all for awhile. Skybreakers we know have been active all this time, and have been watched over by Nale until Szeth. Now we may see skybreakers on either side of the battle actively bonding.
For Releasers Malata may be the only one we see for a loooooong time given to how she says her spren views the Recreance, though if my theory (which has no actual evidence), that Malata is a spy on the Diagram, we may see a sudden reveal of quite a number of them. Stoneward’s spren seem antagonistic towards the humans, so that may be another order that bonds maybe one or two against the greater population’s wishes. Bondsmiths we know only have three and given Cultivation’s leanings we may see a second bondsmith soonish, and maybe even the awakening of Urithiru which in order to maintain the war effort, definitely needs to be awakened. Lastly Edgedancer spren appear to chose who to bond as ordered by the Circle and Lift seems to be the only one they have allowed currently. So I do not think it matters whether or not Adolin is open or not. He could be the most openness person to ever open. Unless the Circle decides a spren should bond him, he will never bond a edgedancer spren. Who knows? Maybe the Circle hopes he will awaken Maya, so have held the other edgedancer spren back on purpose. So I write this all to go back to a post I had made in a prior chapter re-read. At this point in time, given all the factors I have listed, I feel it is an exercise in futility to try and figure out who will get to bond or become a new knight radiant. I am not saying people can’t guess or attempt conjecture, but I think it is extremely difficult to conclusively say this person or that will or will not be a radiant.
scathh
That makes a lot of sense, I can buy that.
@@@@@ 63 – I agree with everything you said, but even pointless speculation can be so fun!
@64 telema
Thank you :)
@65 Evelina
Totally, speculate away! I just felt a lot of the theories on who would become a radiant focused so much on whether or not someone was “broken” or “open” when I feel that is just one part of a larger more complicated whole when taking into account the spren themselves. One bit of speculation I put forward was that the Releasers wanting to see inside things could favor engineers who always want to take apart things and understand how they work which could mean Navani might be a good candidate. There is very little evidence to support it, but it is still fun to picture Navani skating along backwards, with a huge wave of flame following in her wake, as she attempts to calculate and measure the temperature of the flames with how efficient the flames are at vaporizing the surrounding matter lol.
@42: Out of curiosity, which is this other fandom you were referring to? When readers get attached to a given narrative arc or characters, it can often lead to disappointment. Apart from Adolin, we could look into how some readers reacted to the romance. Not that I am trying to discuss the romance, I am just saying it was one narrative element which made some readers react very negatively. I am personally fine with it. I actually rather liked it, on my re-read. I thought it was well made even if not Brandon’s best romance arc.
@52: I do not take every comments as a personal attack. It is just… standing in the middle of so much controversy is emotionally… draining. I do not mean to always end up within this position, the one where others either agree or vehemently disagree with me, but I often seem to do so. And this can be a difficult cross to bear.
If personal experience can be valuable to explain a given viewpoint, I find it is a double-edged knife as illustrated by how this particular conversation went down.
And yeah, juggle not jungle. Sorry. This is almost hilarious. Jungle just sounds like the proper word, within my first language.
@53: I honestly have no idea what Brandon thinks of characters similar to Adolin. I can only observe the fact he is a second tier character in Oathbringer and, as such, I should not expect much more of the character even if I believe he has potential to be an amazing protagonist.
I loved Raoden. He just wanted to do the right thing and he refused to see how draining it was for him.
@54: It is hard to control how I feel given the very central theme of SA just makes matter worst. I sometimes feel SA is bluntly telling me everyone can be a hero, except me. Me? Not interesting enough. Not broken enough. Not enough of anything which is exactly what makes me relate to Adolin: he too has never been enough of anything. Not enough to be a Radiant, not enough to be a more prominent character. Bland, simplistic, one-dimensional, Gary Stu: now I don’t mean to infer anyone on this thread has used those terms to describe the character (besides myself), these are just thoughts I read a lot, elsewhere. Hence, Adolin is just not enough just like I never felt I was…. enough. Even if none of these were Brandon’s intentions, and I don’t mean to put any blame on the author here, it is how I sometimes feel. Not always, sometimes.
Therapy… Ah those are very kind words you have and thank you very much for writing them. Perhaps it is as easy as you say it is, I however never were convinced a therapist would be sympathetic to, well, me.
To go back onto topic, we will get the opportunity to discuss this in more depth, once we reach this part of the story. I promise to no longer comment on Shallan drinking tea.
@56: I have said it before and I will say it again, I never expected anyone to notice anything. You need not to apologize. There are days where I can hardly keep up with myself, so I can’t expect others to achieve what I cannot do.
@61: You wrote this theory on the 17th Shard? As others answered, I do not think Maya can become a spren to another order. I do however think you may have a point when you say Adolin maybe doesn’t believe he is broken. I have made similar theories, how the fact he perceives himself as strong, the fact he never acknowledged the hardships he did go through, the fact he cannot hold anything against this father might be why he reads as so… well.. perfect and unbroken. It could be his arc with Maya will be, in part, about him admitting he is not as strong as he wants to be. It might be about admitting… weakness. Just thoughts, nothing too serious.
I however do not think Adolin will bond Maya out of being “opened”. I just re-read Lopen and… I just feel this chapter highlights this is how Lopen got to bound Rua, but Adolin? His narrative just doesn’t fit, IMHO.
@63: One of my hypothetical narrative arcs for Adolin involves Maya needing to justify the choice of Adolin to the Circle…. I mean, if he revives her without having been approved of by the Circle, could he and Maya get in trouble?
@66: Love this theory. Something I noticed in my re-read which I missed on my first read: Timbre chose to bond Venli because the human betrayed and killed too many of her kind. She no longer trusts them, so she picked a Listener, then another Listener. Spark speaks of vengeance, I think we can get the Recreance will have consequences on who/how the sprens bond people again.
@@@@@ Gepeto – I wasn’t trying to be mean with the tea stuff; I just personally love tea so I was being a little snarky. :) I often have unpopular opinions as well, so I know it can be stressful. As far as your pain and feeling ignored, I hope you find a good friend or group of friends to help with that. I recently decided to exit the work force to raise my children, and it has been a very isolating experience in many ways. I was fortunate to make a new friend in my neighborhood – a woman who also is leaving the workforce to raise her kids (who coincidentally is a therapist). We are both healthy and capable, but we both share many of the same feelings about the challenges we face in life as mothers, wives, sisters, daughters, and human beings in general. It has been a great help to me to have an understanding and empathetic friend to share my feelings with and I sincerely hope you find the same!
@67 – it’s Star Wars. I’m sure if there is any overlap here with these threads and the Star Wars discussions on Tor they’re already well aware of my grievances ;)
But basically as a young teen/young adult I became intensely attached to the character of Luke Skywalker and it (and the general arc/themes of the movies) were a big part of my formative years (and also tied into how I dealt with some personal stuff) so I just don’t really care for the new direction they’ve gone. I can objectively stand aside and say they are basically good/entertaining/interesting movies, and they resonate with fans for different reasons, but not where I wanted to see the story go.
@67 Gepeto
I understand how you feel, but I do not believe anything in Stormlight, or among any other people changing their opinion on it will help with how you feel about yourself. The book is just a catalyst to what is going on for you. The only way I feel resolution can be found, is through self reflection and working through your past. It saddens me to hear you disregard the help that therapy can bring without even attempting it. Unfortunately it is a hallmark of our culture today to assume therapy is to just “fix” whatever is wrong with us, when in reality it is to help us become more in touch with ourselves and overcome barriers holding ourselves back. It is a therapists job to be empathic to you and your plight. To truly hear you and help you hear yourself. At the end of the day, this pain and feeling of not being enough is your own life experience, and I cannot tell you what to do or resolve it for you. This is your own journey. I wish you luck, but I do ask that you re-read my post, and please consider therapy one more time. Putting yourself through such pain on almost a daily occurrence is not healthy nor is it beneficial to your well being. But with therapy you only get out what you put in, and again at the end of the day it is your life to live and your choice to make.
Just a heads up to the moderators, comments are not visible for Oathbringer nor any other thread on the Tor Website using Google Chrome currently. The only way I was able to view them is by using Internet Explorer.
Hi, all–we’re aware that some people are having trouble getting comments to load. You should be able to fix this issue by clearing your browser cache, and then reloading the site/refreshing the page (or possibly restarting your browser after the cache has been cleared, if necessary.) If you continue to experience problems, you can email webmaster[at]tor.com –apologies for the extra hassle!
Ah, it works now. Thank you!
@Gepeto, it is my vague memory that Adolin will get “his own” book, but not until the “back five” set (volumes 6-10), which in real-world terms is at least 15 years away. I mean, starting. Just in the Cosmere BWS has two trilogies and two stand-alone novels to do first, after he writes the next two SA books, which he hasn’t started and which he predicts to take two years each. Realistically, I expect to be dead before he starts the back five. Notice that according to his own site he has written nothing for months.
Carl @74 – There was a time when Adolin was one of the possibilities for a focus character, but Brandon decided against it. The back five will be Renarin, Lift, Jasnah, Ash, and Taln, though we don’t know yet what order they will be in.
@68: I didn’t think anyone was trying to be mean, I just realized some seemed to have made a mental image of Adolin drinking tea after battle, wrapped in comfy blankets, based on my posts, and this may clash too strongly with how the character is being depicted as “imperturbable”. It is not exactly what I meant either.
Hence, the tea is just an example. It is a way which shows people considers Shallan’s well being is very important and will make sure she is cared for properly. Reading the ending of OB, I ended up wanting Adolin to get someone who’d see to his which I didn’t feel he got when he actually was injured. And also later on.
We’ve got Navani constantly worrying/fretting over Dalinar (who’s an even more of a hard soldier who does not need care than Adolin), Bridge 4 camaradery where they care for each other which is especially strong when Rock gets injured and, well, yeah, I wanted Adolin to get the same. Someone. I didn’t feel he did. He got Renarin. I guess this is enough, but it just doesn’t read the same.
It is great you have managed to make a new friend :-) I have lost mine. The last friend I had has become obsessed over her kid’s sports and no longer spends time with people who aren’t parents of other kids playing the same sport. Yeah, I know, not a great example and not my fault, but still, I had wish things had turned out differently. My attempt to find new friends have not worked out so well, so I have resigned myself it would be myself and my family. At least, I have them. It is more than some people.
@69: Ah, I am sorry to hear this.
I haven’t seen the last Star War’s movie yet (though my sister and my cousin inadvertently did spoil me on how it ends), but I heard it was very divisive among the fan community. Luckily, not being an overly great Star Wars fan (I used to really love it, as a kid, but nowadays, it doesn’t steer as much passion in me as it once did), I will probably be fine with the last movie, when I get around to actually watch it.
I am sorry to hear they didn’t take Luke Skywalker towards an interesting path or, at least, one which was coherent with the extended universe (my understanding on how it evolves for him). My take has always been throwing the extended universe away was a mistake: I grew up reading those books and the new movie, while good, just didn’t re-capture the spirit of those reads. Luke grows into such an interesting character within the books, I felt, but maybe I am just being nostalgic.
The Thrawn trilogy were the first books I managed to read in English as opposed to reading translations. My sister got them for me. She had tried other books, but I could never seem to manage to go through them, so she thought if she picked something “I really liked”, it’d work. Guess she was right :-)
@70: I am not ditching out the therapy. My… well, my significant other has wanted me to do it for a while now, but I keep finding it would cause me more stress than good. I would need to skip work to go there. It would be “yet another” thing to add to the schedule and perhaps now is not the right time. Finding a good therapist is also difficult, finding a good therapist who lives near by is even more difficult. And then there is the money, yet another expense.
Thank you once again for your kind words. I will try not to allow my feelings to cloud too much the re-read. And yeah, I did feel SA served as a catalyst.
@72: Had to learn how to clean my cache, but it worked.
@74: Adolin is not scheduled to get a book within the back five. As I once said, I can be patient if I know there is a pay-off down the road. With Adolin however, I do not know if there will be one I will find satisfying. His narrative has always been made of foil arcs: it never really was about him. It is thus hard to have realistic expectations: there is what I want and there is what I am likely to get. And there is Maya… but Maya too could become a foil arc. Nothing says this will be about Adolin.
I have noticed the drop of activity from Brandon too. He has been mostly absent from the social medias too… So either he is actually working on something he is not ready to announce, either he is being wrapped up within Skyward’s review, either he is resting or taking a vacation, either he has actually hit a block. I however do think I will get to read the back five even if I wished the release schedule was a bit tighter. I also need to note Brandon said there would be an in-world gap of 10 to 15 years in between both halves, not within real-life, but maybe there will. This is still far away. I prefer to concentrate on the first five for now: they are supposed to be stand-alone anyway.
OMG Another great discussion I missed. Posting here so that I can binge on this chapter later.
Also fwiw, PLEASE feel free to share your thoughts and interpretations, especially when you disagree with what Lyndsey or I said in the post. We’re guessing just as much as you, most of the time, and in any case the whole point is to give a venue for discussion. So by all means, if you disagree, say so!! /end PSA
Carl @74 – “According to his own site he has written nothing for months.” REALLY?? Have you seen the progress bars? Yes, the draft writing portions of Legion 3 and Skyward have been finished – though there have been revisions to do on those, obviously. But there also a “Secret Project” which has been moving up steadily and now stands at “Second Draft: 100% complete.” That means he’s likely got one more draft where he’ll clean it up a lot, and then it will take one of two paths: first to the editor, back for another revision, and then to the beta readers and so on; or simultaneously to his editor and a small group of alpha readers, back for another revision, out for proofreading and then surprise publication.
And no, I have no idea what it is. It’s not Cosmere, and it’s not something he’s talked about before. I’m looking forward to finding out, though, because he’s been working on it since he finished Skyward.
Is the Secret Project the Dark One thing, perhaps?
Anyway, as far as Star Wars goes – I loved the EU but I don’t mind that they threw it out, per se (funny, this is the second non-Star Wars thread I’ve had this discussion on recently). I understand the creators wanted to do something new, especially now that they had the main 3 characters, and there definitely were continuity snarls there. But I don’t always love what they replaced it with.
As for Luke, I think TLJ was actually better than TFA for what it’s worth (including in how Luke was treated), and I wouldn’t say that his path was uninteresting (in fact, it had some very interesting potential and touched on some very interesting themes. In fact, I saw it right about when I was reading Oathbringer and had gotten to the part where Hoid gives Shallan his speech on failure and it was VERY resonant and kind of a cool convergence.). But it brought me no real joy and I don’t really like the extent of where they took it. This isn’t a Star Wars thread though so I’ll spare you the nitpicky details.
It’s not Dark One either. A 17th Sharder asked him about it and he said it was not. I am too excited to find out about it.
Got distracted lately, but I have to agree with those who feel unsatisfied with lack of certain emotional pay-offs in Oathbringer. Jasnah’s return should have been one of them – yes she’ll get her own book eventually, but it will be decades from now and, most importantly, this was our last chance to see the Kholin family together and a scene betweeen Navani and her children would have heightened the pathos of Ehlokar’s death. I have mentioned previously how WoR had similar problem with Jasnah’s family not reacting her “death” like you’s expect people who have lost a family member to do and how it, inexplicably, didn’t enhance Ehlokar’s paranoia, when it really should have. IMHO, his loss would have really been given more impact if we had seen a short chapter from his PoV and Jasnah’s return could have been ideal for this.
Re: what should have been cut from an already big book to put something like that in, I have to say that while Dalinar is my favorite character in this series, along with Jasnah, and while I certainly appreciate what Sanderson is trying to do with Shallan, I feel that their plot-lines could have been a bit more concise in OB and, most importantly, would have only gained from parts of them being conveyed through the other PoVs. The 3 main characters feel a little too solipsistic to me and not all their chapters contain enough internal reflections that they _need_ to be in their voice. Particularly in Parts 1 and 3. IMHO, some fat could have been trimmed there.
Speaking of Shallan’s versus Adolin’s treatment – the fact that she is a young noblewoman, who until very recently was culturally not expected to shoulder such hardships is certainly at work there. It is not just her age or gender – we know that soldiers can be much younger and I don’t think that, say, a messenger woman, would have rated such solicitude either. OTOH, Shallan’s exercise of Illumination on massive scale does drain her significantly, and there is no measuring stick for the trauma of having to bare your soul to an Unmade… But I do agree that lack of concern for Adolin from people who supposedly cared about him during and particularly after the battle of Thaylenah was a bit jarring, even with everything going on. At least, Renarin was there for him though.
I am of two minds about the benefits of characters learning their powers unfettered by previous tradition and knowledge. Certainly, it is a hoary fantasy trope for a reason and yes, it can allow people to do the supposedly impossible because they don’t know not to try. However, looking objectively, it much more often leads to having to repeatedly re-invent a bicycle. Sanderson does mitigate some of the over-used “learning by the seat of your pants” cliche in SA via the nature of the spren-bond, though. Also, a wind-shield would seem like a fairly logical application of Pressure, so I am not sure why it would have been unknown in the past.
And I really, really hope that the scene with Kaladin, Syl and the gloryspren isn’t a foreshadowing for him eventually becoming a Bondsmith, particularly taking over the Stormfather after Dalinar’s death. It would be such an expected trope – of course the character most resembling an archetypal fantasy hero gets _all_ the powers and eventually ressurects Honor! Argh! Spare us.
Having said that I mostly enjoyed Kaladin’s chapters in OB. I was getting fed up with him in WoR – not with his depression or his distrust towards lighteyes, which were very realistic, but with his repetitively saving the day “in the nick of time”. I am so very glad that OB clamped down on this.
Finally, I know all about latching on to fiction characters who turn out to be secondary/tertiary, or even preferring villains. My favorite character in WoT was Moiraine, so one can easily imagine my disappointment with how that played out in the end. Speaking of lacking pay-offs after a looong wait, heh.
In fact, on a recent re-read of WoK and and WoR I have noticed how much my initial reactions to them were colored by my experiences with WoT – how characters straying into something that looked like a possible digression immediately annoyed me because I was afraid of it mutating into a massive side-plot of doom and preventing the main plot from progressing. Shallan’s parts particularly improved on a re-read once I stopped associating her with Elayne and it became clear that her involvement with Ghostbloods isn’t going to be a pointless distraction, but rather lead to tasty and pertinent mysteries. Her interaction with Kabsal also gained a lot and might contain some interesting hints, IMHO.
I feel as if I’m being way too argumentative here lately, so apologies in advance (and also in retrospect):
Responding to @Wetlandernw,
Thanks. There’s a reason I said it was a “vague memory.”
The Secret Project progress bar hasn’t moved in months. It has been sitting at 100%. I assume he’s working on Dark One to the exclusion of everything else. I just don’t are about that project (I hate TV) so to me personally it is null.
Re: Lack of emotional pay off
It’s probably a couple of things involved with this. One, Brandon is trying to control book bloat. It’s a balancing act. How much extra characterization can he add without screwing his outline completely and having to add books? WOT was only supposed to be 6 books long. The second is that those types of scenes are not his strength. How many times have we read something from him and had a reason to complain about his romantic pairings? Raoden/Sarene, Vin/Elend, Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin, people stand in line to blast Brandon for how these relationships are depicted. He got it right IMO with Wax and Steris, but that was a very slow burn. Third, the family dynamics in SA are all screwy anyway. Rock probably has the only family one could consider even close to normal.
Hmmm, so a lot to dig in to. I will do my best to keep everything concise in one post
@76 Gepeto
I am sorry, but I just cannot seem to resolve the utter pain you spoke of earlier, with your continued desire to speak of Adolin. I am not saying you are ditching therapy. I could never speak upon your life, your choices, nor the requirements it demands but I can speak on how important and crucial mental health is. If your significant other supports such a choice, I would hope the two of you could come to a compromise of duties that would enable you to pursue it and not cause too great a disruption in your life. Fortunately there are websites and apps now that aid in finding therapists all over the globe, and even offer skype chats at all times of day and night to work with people’s hectic schedules. A quick google has a whole list of sites you could use. I could post them here if you like. I would recommend looking into your health insurance as depending on the plans, the cost could go to a co-pay as low as 40 dollars per visit, or even completely cover the cost. It is not about letting your feelings cloud anything. That is you saying to yourself you do not matter. By not taking care of your mental well being you are reinforcing that voice saying you do not matter. You say you only have your family left, but by reaching out to a therapist, you will find yourself with an individual that has your best well being in mind, and is totally focused on helping you. Also having an individual outside of an issue or your immediate life can be a huge boon in confronting core issues and feelings. Mental health affects all aspects of our lives, from work, to friendships, to family life. I cannot stress enough the importance of self care and in our current digital age where the whole world is at our finger tips, I dearly hope you take advantage of such opportunities. At the end of the day you are responsible for your own health. No one can make you. You have to make the choice.
@79 Wetlandernw @80 Lisamarie 81 EvilMonkey and @83 Carl
I would need to do some digging to find the WoB, but as Wetlandernw said, it is not Cosmere, and as EvilMonkey said it is not Dark One. Brandon said he is keeping it secret because of requirements by the Publishing Company involved, so I do not believe it is anything that has been mentioned to date.
@82 Isilel
I understand your opinion regarding not seeing their reactions but I would like to point out the Epigraphs are Navani working through her grief over losing Jasnah, as well as her avoidance of Shallan was her trying to avoid confronting the grief of losing her daughter. She mentions this in the epigraphs. Also prior to Shallan arriving to confirm Jasnah’s passing, everyone assumed the ship was potentially lost at sea, so at that time no foul play that Elhokar could become paranoid over. After Shallan arrived, he was already in full on paranoia mode so not sure how much more paranoid Elhokar could become lol. I respect your thoughts on Jasnah, but I find myself agreeing with Lisamarie. I feel the delay in emotional connection amplified not only Jasnah’s moment with Renarin later in the book, but also Dalinar’s regarding Evi, and Navani regarding Dalinar. But YMMV
Again I feel removing parts, replacing parts, moving things around when it comes to readers is very subjective. I respect that in your opinion you would like to have seen these things. My personal opinion is that I like Oathbringer how it currently is.
I agree on Shallan’s treatment making sense, though I disagree that Adolin was ignored or mistreated.
Well I will say Stormlight is not the only unique experience of characters learning to employ powers in ways previously unheard of by others. Wax of the second era Mistborn is a prime example of this. Actually that connection is why I keep thinking what Kaladin did might be savantism.
Sanderson has commented on bonding two spren being very rare, and very difficult as 1. the spren involved would not like it, and 2. the difficulty of maintaining different oaths from two different orders. So personally I do not see Kaladin becoming a bondsmith.
@84 EvilMonkey
For some reason just saw your post now. Well said.
@80: I was mostly sad they removed the Solo children from the narrative.
@85: I am not American. Insurance works differently over here: I can’t just ask for a better coverage and what I got is already not bad at all. However those kind of expenses are not ones which usually are well covered. Commuting is also complicated: I have two kids to drive and pick up and a full-time job which happens to be one where I am actually asked to produce results. Let’s just say I know therapy is available, but I did make the choice to skip on it because I felt the downside far surpasses the upsides. As I also said, I am not always within the sad/bad mood. It comes and goes.
On the matter of Adolin being ignored or not: I need to make another respond on this. This isn’t meant as a response to anyone in particular, it is just a general one.
I actually thought of the perfect example as I was commuting from work today. By reading the responses, I felt many did not well pictured what I meant or perhaps had trouble picturing how it a “soldier” should need some “care” as much as a “young teenage girl”. So here it is….
Has anyone watched Outlander? The rest of the post contains spoilers for the series.
Watched, not just read the books? If the quality eventually dwindles, IMHO, the series do have many merits. It tethers on the edge of fantasy and historical fantasy. It is fantasy because it involves time travelling, but when you read it, it mostly is historical fantasy. Romance is one of the central theme and, because of it, it has been labeled as a “women’s only thing” which is a shame because it’s got some undeniable quality. I can assure everyone the TV series has nothing womanly about it if only the fact the main protagonist happens to be a woman,
So why am I bringing up Outlander? Because it has exactly what I was referring to when it comes to Adolin. Outlander is gruesomely realistic. It depicts battles in such a realistic way, you end up getting drawn into them. It does not skip on violence, but violence is not what makes the show memorable. No. What makes it memorable is the fact it shows you every facets of the story, it is the fact it presents male characters with a level of depth we rarely see elsewhere. And yes, it deals with PTSD too.
Jamie Fraser shares some characteristics with Adolin Kholin. He is tall, strong, handsome. He has trauma, but he hides it behind a smile, he does not make a big deal out of it and he downplays it consistently to the point where Claire is more horrified by it than Jamie, up until it catches up back to him. The last episode of season 1 is brutally disturbing. I had to close my eyes watching it. I consider it is worst than anything they had ever shown on GoT mostly because of his realistically brutal it is and also because of how amazingly played it also is. Needless to say, Jamie, despite being a big bad tall Scottish warrior, the epitome of masculinity, does have a vulnerable side. Being a very manly soldier who can withstand wounds doesn’t stop Jamie Fraser from needing care, love and support once things get very ugly for him. Seeing how everyone was just *there* for him was fantastic.
Then there is this episode within season 2 where one of the supporting side characters gets injured. It was a bullet gut wound, I think, but the wound itself is not really important. What is important is this named secondary minor character, who doesn’t have a narrative of his own, who’s entire importance to the Outlander narrative is lesser than Adolin’s to the SA narrative, gets hurt and the other characters are just there for him. His injury is not the main theme of an episode. It is not the most important thing which happens, but his best friend, another equally minor character, sits next to him, holding his hand. For days. The emotions are palpable. Then, the best friend starts feeling badly and he collapses. The other characters realized he has been hiding a wound of his own, blunt trauma he got from standing too close to a flying canon ball. He had been internally bleeding for days. Then he brutally and suddenly dies. This is when the wounded man wakes up to find his best friend dead and he wails for him.
This scene involved big, filled with muscles, thirty-forty-something men with long greasy hair, beards and wearing three layers of fur. We can’t get anymore manly, warrior-y, soldier-y than this and yet, there was care, tenderness, love, sadness and pain. And yes, they do cry. None of the involved characters were naive teenage girls with a mental illness everyone just wants to protect: all were variations of the warrior trope.
This is exactly what I meant when I said Adolin is not receiving sufficient care when he gets wounded. Those scenes. Those scenes who depicts warriors getting injured, getting tortured and finding themselves into a vulnerable moment. Warriors who do not necessarily have PTSD nor any prior trauma and yet, when they take a wound, even if more pressing issues are at stakes, others stop to care for them.
No one stopped to care for Adolin. Oh, if care means he was “healed”, then yeah, sure. He was “cared” for. If “not ignored” merely means “not left to die in his blood”, then yes, he was not “ignored, but he did not receive the care, the concern and the support from the people who should have given it to him. An unknown Thaylen Shardbearer showing great concern for Adolin’s physical health than Dalinar and Kaladin did.
Therefore, in response to the argument Adolin does not need care, tenderness nor concern when he gets badly injured, I will say: watch Outlander.
#84, @EvilMonkey
Screwed-up families are a thing in the SA, but Kaladin’s family is normal in its dynamics, it has just endured several tragedies. For that matter, it’s no doubt a conscious decision by the author that Taravangian is hands-down the best parent and grandparent in the story.
@86 Gepeto
Where are you from if you do not mind me asking? Such policies are not unique to America, and actually typically other nation’s policies are far more supportive. Our neighbors to the north Canada for instance provides free healthcare and though originally they did not support mental health, new initiatives about a year or two ago have gone forward to recognize and support mental illness. I am not sure why you mentioned commuting? As I said there are websites and apps that not only help you locate a therapist, but also skype with them at all hours of the day. At the end of the day I cannot make you. It is your decision.
I am sorry, but not always being in a sad/bad mood is quite different from how you said anytime you read Stormlight or the forums that Adolin is ignored, gives you such incredible pain you cannot describe it. It is for this reason that again I am sorry, but I would rather not discuss it further with you. I have my reasons (some I have already stated, and many more) that as per the book I feel are perfectly supported that Adolin was not ignored but by engaging in that subject matter with you, I will have to acknowledge I am actively putting you through pain. So I choose not to take part in that. Suffice it to say, I disagree, I am sorry that hurts you, but that is where I stand.
@87 Carl
LOL, that is actually very ironic and a good point. Taravangian clearly loves his grand-daughter, and it has been confirmed her being trapped behind the boulder was not Taravangian’s doing. So one of the most divisive characters actually is a pretty loving grandpa. I love it lol.
By the way: just after I mention that they haven’t updated for months, the progress bars at brandonsanderson.com now show a new item (Skyward 2 second draft) at 20%. Sheer coincidence, I’m sure.
Note that none of the projects shown are Cosmere. I continue to hold that my timeline is realistic.
Carl, it of course depends on all manner of things – his health and that of his family, other plot bunnies that need to be hunted down and killed written, and all the myriad of situations that could affect his ability to write what he wants, when he wants. If you’re only going to count Cosmere works – or Stormlight Archive as “real writing” you care about, that’s your prerogative. I can only say that I think you’re missing out on some good stuff; aside from that, I’ll quote him: “If I quit writing everything else and only wrote Stormlight, you wouldn’t get it any faster, and it wouldn’t be as good. I need to work on other things to keep my mind fresh.” The same applies to the Cosmere in general as well as just Stormlight: he needs to write other things too. He’s playing with some very fun stuff in Skyward, and I’m pretty sure that we’ll see the Skyward 2 progress bar shooting forward until the end of August; then we’ll see a new bar for The Lost Metal. When he starts writing SA4, early next year, he’ll be refreshed and ready to take on Roshar again. As a bonus, I predict that some of the research for Skyward is going to affect things in SA4 in very positive ways.
Alice, I’ve read some of his non-Cosmere stuff, and at least half of it was very good. It isn’t that it doesn’t count, it’s just that it doesn’t bring the end of the SA closer (directly). I wasn’t saying he should write only Cosmere, just saying that because he does divide his time among projects, the ones much farther down on his list (like the “back six” SA books) will not happen until I’m dead and he’s elderly. This remains true.
As mentioned a few threads ago: Sanderson is taking on new projects faster than he’s finishing older ones. Late-Cosmere stuff (Mistborn Era 4) will never happen if he keeps that up, just by math.
BWS is not the first writer I’ve known to say that switching between projects keeps him fresh. In fact, Lawrence Watt-Evans told me that before I read my first Sanderson story. And he also hasn’t made the progress some fans would like on the project that drew them in. (In Lawrence’s case, Ethshar.) It might be inevitable, but for someone who wants to know how a long storyline comes out, it can be frustrating, and the Cosmere has a much stronger through-line than Ethshar, which makes it worse.
@91 Carl
I understand the frustration of being concerned that you will not get to see the resolution of a series you enjoy, but given the mortal coil we are heir to, this is bound to happen no matter what. Unless you stop reading any books at all after the resolution of Sanderson’s novels, there will always be a chance that you start a series that will not be completed prior to you expiring. That is not to diminish how you feel. I just feel it necessary to point out that regardless what any author is doing, whether working on other projects, or one project to the exclusion of all else, will not change the fact that there will be a series not completed by the time you pass away, by the time I pass away, Wetlandrnw, and so on. It unfortunately is the nature of the beast.
@88: I am not sure how much I want to give away in terms of my personal identity. Ask me in private and I will answer, but not on the public thread.
I’ll just say, where I live, private counselling is not included within the public health-care system and, as such, costs money. Insurance pay for part it, but they tend to be cap to a yearly maximum.
I am not ignoring your suggestion and you are very kind with your words. I will consider all options and make a decision within the best interest of my entire family. The fact I hurt over a book character I personally relate to a lot, while sad when read on a forum, does not bear significant enough impacts onto my real-life to take drastic actions.
It hurts usually when I think too much of the SA theme, the heroes and who can be one and who just misses out on being one. It is quite a selfish line of thinking too. Hence, because Brandon made a point of introducing mentally-ill characters and to turn them into heroes, everyone ended up wanting to be represented. The “why not me” syndrome, if you want and, in my case, it is exacerbated by the fact the author did write a character I can personally relate to, but does not seem to want to give this character much more than a background side-arc. Those feelings also are further exacerbate by the comments I sometimes read, elsewhere, which are very negative towards Adolin’s character.
On the matter of how much Adolin was ignored or not, I respect your position, but I disagree with it. I put up an example not necessarily to further the discussion, but to illustrate what I meant all along. Something anyone can watch and see for themselves: warriors caring for each other in ways no one has cared for Adolin within three books worth of SA. I thought it did well to dispel the argument “he doesn’t need it because he is a soldier”. My argument is “he is a human being”, his life deserves to be considered by the people who supposedly love him when he is injured. And to close the matter, while it was obvious Renarin did care, Kaladin/Shallan’s lack of concern combined with Dalinar not paying any outward attention to his son truly did not make a narrative where “Adolin was cared for”. He was healed, but not cared for.
@91: Carl, I understand your concern and I realize how difficult it must be to foresee you might not live long enough to read the end of the series. I am not within this situation, but I have read other older readers commenting on how, while they enjoyed the series, they knew they might never read how it ends. I can’t explain how sad it makes me and how unprepared I am to even think of reaching this part of my life.
My mother has been speaking a lot, recently, of how people she knows are falling ill and dying, recently, of how, if she stops doing what she loves doing, there might not be other opportunities… And wow, it gets to me. I cannot foresee the day where my parents will no longer be around… and yet… it will happen.
So maybe this is why I have tried not to pick up unfinished series since starting up SA. I used to love unfinished stories, but now… I kind of prefer knowing they are either finished or closed to be finished. Now I am finished my re-read of Oathbringer, I will start to look for my next read.
@93 Gepeto
I am sorry, I figured since you had no problem assuming where I live and posting it on this page, you would have no problem mentioning where you live. Like I said, I cannot make you. It is your decision, and a choice you are perfectly entitled to chose to do or not to do. I feel even one meeting with a therapist can do a whole lot of good, but it is up to you to decide.
I will say I find myself confused how one moment you can write
So yes, it hurts. SA hurts. And nor for the reasons it hurts other readers. It hurts because it reinforce the message I have been hammered into part of my life: “others have it worst, suck it up, no one wants to hear about you. No one thinks you deserve a bit of care and love and attention: just because you’ve done well for yourself without it does not mean you never needed it.”
But now say it is not so bad. I guess to each their own. I am sorry, but as I said I choose not to continue the discussion regarding whether or not Adolin is ignored based on your earlier statements. I don’t think he was ignored based on what my reading is of what is in the book. You are more than free to continue the discussion with anyone else. I am not stopping you. I am just ending my part in it because I do not relish putting another person through pain.
Losing a family member is never easy to deal with. My mother’s death after 2 years fighting cancer when she only reached 68 still affects me and it happened 3 years ago. Looking back at history 68 is a long life lived, but given technological advances, it still feels like a life cut short.
@94: It is… complicated and probably very silly too. Let’s just say I, once upon a time, took a decision which is now proving difficult to conciliate. It took proportions I hadn’t foreseen at the time. As I said, I honestly do not mind telling, just not publicly. I have my reasons which are, in part, very silly. It is nothing bad or anything, just very silly and a testimony of how bad I am with the whole social media thing.
What I meant is those feelings are not present on an every day basis. I do not spend my every waking moments pondering about my past and how I dealt (or did not deal) with it. I spend most of my real-life time being very focused on my real-life and not so much onto the past. Every word I said was true, but the other truth is I do not think of those things in a constant manner. SA sometimes brings me back to those days and when this happens, it hurts for all of the reasons I mentioned. And see, the thing is, I think it will always hurt. I cannot erase those years nor can I erase how I felt going through them. I can however try to tell people not to take others for granted and to have a broader view of how disabilities can affect a family.
And my words were the truth as I lived it: just because you are doing well does not mean you never needed other’s support. Being successful does not mean everything you are going through is meaningless: everyone reacts differently to hardships and, some of us, just react by trying to appear stronger. It is a reaction meant to dissociate yourself from the issue at hand: you pretend and act like it never affected you to avoid being seen as needing others to view you as vulnerable. It is very hard to put into words and I saw a lot of this in Adolin’s character. Perhaps I am wrong, but it remains how I have viewed the character.
For the rest, as I said, I wanted to put up an example of what I meant so others can see for themselves. I felt a few episodes from a TV series might show what I tried to express in words. You may still disagree with me, but at least now, you have a way of seeing what I mean and envisioned all along.
My mother is 68 years old and I cannot foresee the day she will not be around. I tell my kids their grand-mommy is far from being old enough to die. My mother’s mother, my grand-mother died when she was 67. I barely remember her. I have images, flashes, but no real memories. My mother spoke of what it meant for her to outlive her own mother and yeah, I feel for you. Losing your parent at an age where parents shouldn’t die probably hurts a lot. I am trying to envision how I would react if my own mother were to die tomorrow and it’d be awful, so have all of my sympathy. 68 years old is a young age to die, these days. I want my mother to watch my kids grow up and reach adulthood.
@95 Gepeto
What you posted says to me anytime you read SA or contribute to these forums regarding your opinion on Adolin being ignored, tears you apart. What that also says to me, it is a cry for help, much like when a teenager (not saying you are a teenager, just providing an example) writing a poem on death and despair, but when confronted asking if that is how that teenager feels, they say how it was just a harmless poem. The teenager is depressed and needs help, but they fear the results and are self conscious when confronted. That is why it is your decision on whether you go to therapy. Just like it is my decision to disengage from a conversation that I feel is harmful to an individual. I have already stated my thoughts on the matter. I will not continue discussing whether or not Adolin was ignored.
Thankfully my mother got to know my nephew, but it broke her up inside near the end worrying that my niece would not remember her. My second niece was born just after my mother passed, so she will never know who my mother was except from what my brother and myself tell her. She did get to meet my wife while we were dating, and they did bond albeit briefly. My wife laments not getting to spend more time with my mother. Unfortunately the experience has taught me that life is all too brief, and what people think of us at the end of the day does not matter. We all end up ultimately at the same place. As Hamlet said:
Our worm is your only emperor for diet. We fat all creatures else to fat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots. Your fat king and your lean beggar is but variable service—two dishes, but to one table. That’s the end.